Freethought & Rationalism Archive

babelfish · 10-17-2002, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kingjames1:
babelfish

indeed, I would be bitter, or rather, more accurately, quite the socio-path.

<snip>

If there is no God, whatever meaning I invent for my life is just that: my own feeble, fallible invention. If there is to be actual meaing, actual ethical content to my rhetoric about right and wrong, actual weight (as understood by the poets since the dawn of history) to the three famous words, "I love you," I need something bigger than me to define what is good, what is right, what is pure, what is lovely, what is worthy of my energies. Otherwise, i am trapped in sort of practical solipsism - my own ideas about what is good is "what is good"! Doesn't that fall flat, though? Is that not unsatisfactory? Meaning is what I decide it to be: Sartre chose Marxism, you choose whatever brand of philosophy you like, and I'll choose Christianity 'cause I want to...
that doesn't strike you as lame - everybody's equally wrong, and is deluding themselves into thinking that there is meaning to life, when in fact its just what they themselves have projected onto it - marxism, racism, anti-semitism, they are all equally human inventions, and they are all therefore equally arbitrary.

<snip>

KJ1 - Not wanting to aid and abet your hijack of this thread, I still feel like I have to make a point here.

Did you ever see that Disney movie about the flying elephant? At the end of the movie, Dumbo's friend the mouse gives him a "magic" feather. He tells him that with this feather firmly clutched in his trunk, he will be able to fly. Well, of course, in mid-flight, Dumbo drops the feather. His friend the mouse, riding along in his hat, yells to Dumbo that it wasn't the feather that was making him fly, he had been doing it on his own all along.

It is scary to let go of the Bible as our "morality crutch," isn't it? Have you ever considered that we've been the ones all along, we humans, who have been the authors of morality? That perhaps if we let go of the Bible, we could still fly on our own?

And before you come back and tell my how arrogant I am, I assure you, I am not claiming to be God when I say that humans are the authors of morality. To me, arrogance is being a tiny creature on a tiny planet in a vast universe, claiming that the whole thing was created solely for my benefit by a loving father. That's arrogance.

Hobbs · 10-17-2002, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kingjames1:
I thank God most atheists are inconsistent with their own presuppositions - they still cling to some notion of right and wrong, justice and injustice, though, in my humble opinion, they cannot provide any ground for such transcendental claims).

Tell me, kingjames1, does God have any reasons for the standards he allegedly provides for us, or are they all just arbitrary, groundless assertions he pulled out of his head (or some other part of his anatomy)? If he has reasons, what are those reasons, and why can't we appeal to them ourselves? If it is just arbitrary, why are his arbitrary proclamations any "better" than ours? (Other than because he's strong enough to enforce his rules, i.e. "might makes right"?)

Seeker196 · 10-17-2002, 05:44 AM

The Party's slogan sums up the Bible pretty good:

GOD IS POWER
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

I forget the last part...

But don't forget to tithe! And support our military, industrial, and political order!

kingjames1 · 10-17-2002, 05:47 AM

Reply to Mageth

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Why should I have to demonstrate it? The only "logically necessary implication" I can think of is that I lack a religious worldview. Thus, my worldview is non-religious. But that would seem to be obvious in that I lack a belief in god(s).

Mageth, if you would like to discuss more fully the religious implications of atheism, why not create a new post under philosophy...I believe your comments here are bit over simplisitic. But perhaps that is by the nature of the discussion on this post.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:

And my worldview is not summed up in "atheism". Metaphysical naturalism, perhaps, but not atheism.

Indeed, I agree with you. Atheism is insufficient, in and of itself, to delineate an entire worldview. So you're a atheistic naturalist (as opposed to say the deistic kind)...that's even better because I know that that system has been worked in detail my numerous thinkers. I again put to you the challenge, if you are willing to accept it: defend your system against nihilism (what I believe is the inevitable, logical end of a consistent naturalism).

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Why is not my word that I can and do good enough for you? Is there something about your worldview that requires atheists to be miserable creatures living meaningless lives?

Mageth, in answer to your first question, one's word is never sufficient in debate. I'm not asking you a personal question here (i.e. do you find your life 'good' or 'meaningful', although that is a good question). Rather, I asked you to defend the assertion that life in atheistic universe can justifiably have meaning or purpose, or ethics, for that matter. In other words, defend the claim that nihilism is NOT the consistent conclusion of atheistic naturalism. I realize that that is a large project, but I am not asking for a dissertation...merely, how do respond to the nihilist charge that your pet projects in life are meaningless? If you merely say, "they just do! can't you believe that?" That is a dogmatic assertion on par with the fundamentalists' response to biblical criticism: "it's just true! can't you just accept that?"

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
And fill me in, if you can, on the supposed "logical implications" and "consequences" of my lack of belief.
[/QB]

I will gladly do so, if you'd like to move to a new post...?

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
The mere existence of "happy atheists" like myself makes your reasoning illogical, if that is so.
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ][/QB]

No more than the existence of a "happy theist" causes your system problems - we'd probably both conclude the same thing: sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

J.

kingjames1 · 10-17-2002, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
I think kingjames1 got the ball rolling with his "...it is my suspicion that the reason so many atheists are clueless regarding the logical implications of their supposedly simple "lack of belief," is that they are too intellectually lazy to consider the consequences."

Actually, Mageth - to be anal about it - I believe it was your quote that theists are "pissed" about other people living a meaningful life apart from their "fantastic" myths...hence my comment about "while we're slinging mud..."

J.

kingjames1 · 10-17-2002, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by babelfish:


Did you ever see that Disney movie about the flying elephant? At the end of the movie, Dumbo's friend the mouse gives him a "magic" feather. He tells him that with this feather firmly clutched in his trunk, he will be able to fly. Well, of course, in mid-flight, Dumbo drops the feather. His friend the mouse, riding along in his hat, yells to Dumbo that it wasn't the feather that was making him fly, he had been doing it on his own all along.

It is scary to let go of the Bible as our "morality crutch," isn't it? Have you ever considered that we've been the ones all along, we humans, who have been the authors of morality? That perhaps if we let go of the Bible, we could still fly on our own?

And before you come back and tell my how arrogant I am, I assure you, I am not claiming to be God when I say that humans are the authors of morality. To me, arrogance is being a tiny creature on a tiny planet in a vast universe, claiming that the whole thing was created solely for my benefit by a loving father. That's arrogance.

First, if that it is the babelfish, that is, if you are willing to admit that morals are artefacts, then the discussion should be moved to a new topic. Let me know where you're going...the implications are enormous.

Second, i don't believe that the universe was created for "my benefit".

J.

beoba · 10-17-2002, 06:09 AM

/me laughs at kj's attempts at hijacking the thread

babelfish · 10-17-2002, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kingjames1:


First, if that it is the babelfish, that is, if you are willing to admit that morals are artefacts, then the discussion should be moved to a new topic. Let me know where you're going...the implications are enormous.

Second, i don't believe that the universe was created for "my benefit".

J.

Here's a thread already going that you may like to jump in on:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000328" target="_blank">Click Here</a>

babelfish · 10-17-2002, 06:57 AM

kj1:

Here's another topic you might like to chime in on, right here on MRD:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001268" target="_blank">Click Here</a>

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]

Bree · 10-17-2002, 08:29 AM

I'm so impressed!

kingjames1) has declared me a socio-path and a non-intellectual! What a great learning tool as to why the Bible is full of crap - you see, the Good Book says that Christ's followers speak for Christ.

That would mean that it's actually Christ spewing this bullshit. And I know Christ would never do that

.

10-17-2002, 06:57 AM	#99
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	kj1: Here's another topic you might like to chime in on, right here on MRD: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001268" target="_blank">Click Here</a> [ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]</p>

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10-17-2002, 05:44 AM	#93
Seeker196 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 278	The Party's slogan sums up the Bible pretty good: GOD IS POWER FREEDOM IS SLAVERY I forget the last part... But don't forget to tithe! And support our military, industrial, and political order!

10-17-2002, 06:09 AM	#97
beoba Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Boston Posts: 699	/me laughs at kj's attempts at hijacking the thread

10-17-2002, 08:29 AM	#100
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	I'm so impressed! kingjames1) has declared me a socio-path and a non-intellectual! What a great learning tool as to why the Bible is full of crap - you see, the Good Book says that Christ's followers speak for Christ. That would mean that it's actually Christ spewing this bullshit. And I know Christ would never do that .

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