mnkbdky

Actually you must be very skilled at improv if you are a good classical musician, especially these day with composers like Ligeti and Berio.

Yes jazz can be just as high a form of music as classical. I guess maybe I should say there are degrees of musicianship. With the greatest being those who know all aspects. I tend sometimes to be too strict in my definitions.

Opera Nut

I think of both Mahler and Mendelssohn as both still being REAL Jews. Their conversion was not exactly forced, but the authorities made life worse for Jews. Life was much easier for converts to Christianity. So I still consider their conversion not totally of their own free will.

Besides, check out the string bass solo in Mahler's First Symphony. It's extremely high, up in treble clef, and it's Frere Jacques in a minor key. He starts to develop the theme and then a rowdy band of klezmer type clarinets cut in playing their sad song. Now to me that is probably saying that Catholicism is not Gustav's cup of tea.

I agree that Christian classical music in Latin, is good stuff. I saw the Tallis Scholars a few days ago, and everything they do is in Latin. They are really angelic sounding. Church music doesn't get performed in church anymore. The catholics insist that the service be in the vernacular, and they will get mad if you do anything in Latin (I guess God's translator-hearing-aid musta switched languages).

All you get in Protestant churches pretty much is Calvinist dirges and war analogies "A Mighty Fortress" "Onward Christian Soldiers". Yuck. And "Amazing Grace" just kills me -- especially on bagpipes -- worse than a bunch of accordion players!!! Gag!!

I would love it if somebody actually had a full orchestra and chorus performing a requiem mass at a funeral. The Berlioz Requiem is a nice sizzling barn burner!!

The only "Christian" pop music I can stand is U2, because they don't beat people over the head with it obsessively. They use Christian imagery but they are subtle about it. Being from Dublin, they have seen what centuries of religious fights have done to their people. It hasn't stopped either.

If there is a Jewish heaven, I would rather go there. They would have sex in a Jewish heaven, because they are not poisoned by Paul's woman hating, sex hating message.

mnkbdky

This is a mighty claim. However, it is unwarranted. One does not have to give up their Jewish identity in order to become a Christian. Just look at the Messianic Jews, for example. Furthermore, Mahler's music and lyrics (such a crude term) are so Christian it is not funny. Listen to his 2nd. The bells in the final movement are in 3/4, representing the Trinity, with the rest in 4/4.

But, it is probably neither yours nor mine to judge whether he was a true Christian.

Opera Nut

Excuse me, Messianic Jews are not considered Real Jews by Real Jews. They are Christians in Hebrew clothing. Just because they say they are Jews does not mean they are Jews. They are a front group for a massive conversion effort by the Southern Baptists. Read what real Jews say about it.

Quote from the jewsforjudaism.com website:


Baptists Declare
"Open Season" on Jews


On June 13, 1996, the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution which called for the Baptists to direct their "energies and resources toward the proclamation of the gospel to the Jewish people." In essence, this puts the force and power of the largest fundamentalist Christian denomination with over 37,000 churches and 15 million members in the U.S.- squarely on the side of bringing Jews to Christianity. "

Furthermore:

"We will not be a target! One cannot be a Jew and a Christian at the same time and we're proud to be Jews! "


Consider this excerpt from a sermon by Rabbi Steven Morgen at Congregation Beth Yeshurun. (www.bethyeshurun.org). Jesus did not fulfill the Old Testament prophecies of requirements for a messiah:


"In any case, certain of our prophets had predicted that when we returned from the Babylonian Exile we would have a Mashiah � a leader, who would gather in all the exiles of the Jewish people and bring them back to Israel. [Isaiah 27:12-13, 11:12] He would organize the rebuilding of Jerusalem and most likely the Temple. [Micah 4:1] Israel would be again an independent country. [Joel 4:17] There would be peace all over the world. [Isaiah 2:4, 11:6, Micah 4:3] And Israel would be recognized as having a wise and honorable leadership. [Isaiah 11:10] These predictions had come to pass in part, but they never had been completely fulfilled. And during the time of the Roman oppression, our people began to pray for such a Mashiah to come, and they began to believe that the coming of such a Mashiah was close at hand.

"Jesus and his followers may well have thought that Jesus was just such a Mashiah. He was obviously a charismatic leader with somewhat of a following. Perhaps, given his message of peace, he fashioned himself to be like a Gandhi figure, preaching a passive disobedience to the Romans. We don�t know. What we do know is that from the Jewish perspective, Jesus failed to fulfill the requirements of a Mashiah. In fact, he never became a widely-recognized leader of the Jewish people. He did not bring about the ingathering of Jewish exiles � most of whom continued to be scattered throughout the Roman Empire and the Parthian Empire to the East. Israel had not gained its independence from Rome and there certainly was not universal peace in the world.

"Jesus� followers were not dissuaded from believing that he was the one, however. Instead, they concluded that Jesus would one day return to fulfill these prophecies. In the meantime they pointed to other passages of the Bible to try and demonstrate that his lineage was correct and that he had fulfilled certain formal characteristics of what they considered the Mashiah was supposed to be � born in Bethlehem, to a young maiden, and so on. But these passages do not reflect the heart of what it meant to be the Mashiah from the Jewish perspective.

"The essence of being the Mashiah, especially for our people suffering under Roman rule, was to fulfill the ideals and the goals that he was supposed to accomplish. Moreover, we Jews never had the idea that the Mashiah would have a second chance, a second opportunity, to fulfill these goals in some later return to earth.

"These are the essential reasons then, that the Jews never accepted Jesus as the Mashiah, particularly after he died. But then Christianity developed some other ideas that even further distanced Jews from their religion. Christianity came to conclude that not only was Jesus the Mashiah, but that also meant that he was also the Son of God, or even God Himself. He was literally the Son of God because God had caused Jesus� mother Mary to become pregnant with Jesus. And he was God Himself, because he was part of a Trinity: The Father God in Heaven, the Son God (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost (or the Spirit).

"These ideas were never part of Jewish thinking about the Mashiah, who was always understood to be a human being, perhaps something like Moses: a leader who is able to discern God�s will for us and for whom God might make miracles happen, but who was a human being nonetheless. When Jews speak of someone being a Son of God, the only way that makes sense to us is in the sense that we are all God�s children because God created humankind. And we have no belief in a Trinity. We believe in One unified God. Period. So, it is even more impossible for Jews to believe in Jesus the way the so-called Jews for Jesus want us to believe in him. "


If you believe the logical farce that Jews for Jesus/Messianic Jews put out, I have a large bridge in New York to sell you and beachfront property in Florida as well.

philechat

You just snatched another atheist up from thin air--Hector Berlioz. Now things are getting more and more ironic .

mnkbdky

Apparently this struck a chord (no pun) with you Opera Nut. Please, though, do not think I am ignorant to religious issues. In fact, I live in a Reformed Jewish synagogue. All I meant was that one can retain their Jewish heritage and still be Christian.

It appears though that this is a touchy issue with you, so we should probably not talk about it.

Opera Nut

So if you belong to a Reform Jewish shul then why don't you agree with what real Jews say about Messianic Jews? You don't agree with the sermon I quoted or what? I know of NO Jewish section or congregation that thinks of Messianic Jews as anything but a threat to their heritage. That sermon pointed out why Jesus is not the Messiah according to the prophecies in the Old Testament. So if you think you can be a Christian and a Jew both, then why aren't you one of those fake Jewish Christians?

Jews for Jesus is still a front group for Baptists trying to convert people. Makes my hatred of fundies even more serious, and I'm not Christian OR Jewish.

mnkbdky

Opera Nut,

Even though you are not a Christian or a Jew you seem to be pretty passionate about the subject. With that said I will not engage in a conversation with someone who says they actually hate people because of what they believe. My suggestion is not to do your research on the net. Find the respected scholars in each area and read their books. What you will notice is that there is a lot of conversation and shared repsect among both Jewish and Christian scholars on the interp of certain passages. In fact, many Old Testament Christians scholars get their education at Jewish seminaries.

Good luck, I will not be checking this thread again.

Opera Nut

He never answered my question about what he thought, so he left. Troll.

My opinion of the Jews for Jesus is that they are just as fraudulent and sick as fundies. So there.

Corgan Sow

Why's all of a sudden Mahler is perceived as a Christian? He is eccentrically agnostic with strong beliefs in theism (though Das Lied Von Der Erde is somewhat Taoist). In "Resurrection" symphony, he rejects the notion of a hell-damning deity. Mahler is as the same as Brahms and Vaughan Williams who are secularists composing religious music just for the aesthetic hell of it.

BTW, his Eighth Symphony is awesome. Should he live longer, he should've composed a Faust opera instead.