Oolon Colluphid

I prefer to use my eyes to look for things.

Doubtless, if you do "look for him with all your heart", you'll find him. Because you're talking about what you want to be, not about finding what is.

You have a very peculiar way using the word 'fact'. Since we humans have to operate at the level of evidence (as opposed to defining the universe beforehand, as in maths), a fact is something so well evidenced that it is perverse to withhold provisional agreement. What evidence -- real evidence -- is there for this supposed entity you are so keen on?

Oolon

bluefugue

Why should we have to "look for him with all our heart" anyway? I don't have to look for trees with all my heart. I don't have to look for Mike Wallace with all my heart. I don't have to look for gravity with all my heart. Yet the existence of trees, Mike Wallace, and gravity is evident. I find it odd that the most powerful and ubiquitous entity in the universe should prove so elusive. But then -- he is a "tricky" one, isn't he?

davidH

Yeah, I guess it all comes down to what you believe evidience to be.
You can't see God but you can feel and see his presence. I guess you could use the wind as an example, if I where to ask you why u believe in the wind what would you say? You can't see the wind but you know there is wind because you can feel it and you can see the effects of it's power.
Hence the reason why I believe in God, I haven't seen him but I have felt him and seen his power.

I believe that the miracles that are recorded in the Bible did happen and there is no natural explanation for them.
The reason I believe they happened is that the Christian faith would never have been able to grow unless they were real. Jesus too had to have existed.

Let me phrase it this way. Imagine if you try and start a religion, you start in your home town. You begin proclaiming that a person existed in your town that did many miracles and that the people in the town killed him, but on the third day he rose from the dead. So he is God and you are to turn and worship him.
Now what reaction would you get from the people in your town?
Because that man had never existed you would have been laughed at, probably taken to court for saying the town mayor killed the man...etc etc. They would never believe you because the man had never existed - they had never heard of a man healing in their town and the talk about him rising from the dead...well, who in their right mind would believe that!

So u see, how could Jesus not have existed, performed miracles, been killed and have risen again? To make up stories about a man who was so well known throughout Isreal...when actually noone knew him....would anyone have followed the him?

The same goes for when the gospel was preached to the gentiles, they had never heard of Jesus and so would have had no reason to believe in the miracles and the ressurection from the dead.
Would you believe if you were in their position?
And yet would you not start believing when all the miracles where done by those preaching to the gentiles? You see the miracles confirmed the gosple that was being preached, miracles had to have occurred otherwise do you think the first gentile converts would have believed?

There is no other logical explanation that I can find for this. It had to have happened. My own experiences and the testimony of other Christians have only confirmed this.

Let me give you an few examples before I have to go:

A missionary lady that I know - been to her meetings and parents know her well, use to be a nurse out in Africa.
There came a time when a women giving birth to a child died, and the baby had to be "incubated" in order for it to survive - hot water bottles surrounded by cotton wool were used, as no modern equipement was available.
However as an African nurse was filling up the hot water bottle it burst. It was the last one they had, so in order to make do they put the baby close to a fire with the nurse there with the baby to make sure the fire didn't go out.

The missionary (who also ran an orphanage) told the children there what had happened that day. One girl (7 or so)asked if they could pray for another hotwater bottle, as the little girl boldy asked God to send them a hotwater bottle she also stated that she would like God to send a doll to the little baby too (the baby was a girl).
The next day a parcel arrived on the lorry from the nearby town, the missionary told all the children to gather round as she opened the parcel.
There were clothes and bits and pieces inside, and there was a hotwater bottle, the little girl promptly said, if the hotwater bottle is there then the doll must be in here too. Sure enough at the bottom there was the doll.

The amazing thing was that the parcel had been sent out from someone in England and had taken 4 weeks to arrive.
When the person was asked why they sent out a hot water bottle to Africa(!) they said that they felt moved by God to send it out.

Maybe it was a coincidence - but too many things fitted together.....maybe the God of the Bible is real.

There are many many more true stories, like the pulpet in a church that was shattered to pieces, people being healed and permently healed at that.

If you look, there is much evidience.

Coragyps

davidH - That's all well and good, and well off topic as well, but I've seen essentially the identical arguments as to why Islam is true and the Qu'ran is the infallible word of Allah. I, for one, am perfectly happy with your picking the evidence you wish to accept: I will do the same. My only real concern in all this evo-cre debate is that I will not accept pure myth being taught to my grandchildren (if I ever get some ) as if it were science.

Dr Rick

*sigh* <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

The antibiotic does not cause the mutation, and it is very, very rare for a mutation to occur during a course of antibiotic therapy that results in antibiotic resistance. If a bacterium is antibiotic resistant, the mutation/gene almost always existed prior to the course of therapy.

In the absence of antibiotics, a resistance mutation/gene usually confers no special advantage to a bacterium that posseses it, so the bacterium must continue to compete with the other non-resistant bacteria that are also trying to survive and reproduce.

However, if the same population of bacteria in which only one bacterium has a mutation/gene for antibiotic resistance is subjected to antibiotic therapy, the antibiotic will kill all those bacterium that do not already possess the resistance gene but will not kill the one that does have the gene. This leaves only the resistant bacterium alive and able to reproduce, and it is now free of the competition that the non-resistant bacteria would otherwise impose. The resistant bacterium can then multipy whereas the non-resistanat ones cannot any longer because they are dead. Soon the entire population of dead non-resistant bacteria are replaced only by resistant ones because they are all daughters (offspring) of the one bacterium that had the antibiotic resistance mutation/gene at the beginning.

The antibiotic does not cause the mutation/gene, but rather "selects" for the mutation/gene that causes resistance because it puts "pressure" upon (kills) the other bacteria. The antibiotic is putting pressure on the non-resistant bacteria by killing them, and putting no pressure on the resistant bacterium by not killing it. This is called "selective pressure."

This is a simple explanation of antibiotic resistance because antibiotic susceptibility and resistance is usually relative, but it's not necessary to know or understand about antibiotic levels or therapeutic course length to understand how antibiotic resistant bacterial populations arise from populations that were almost completely devoid of resistance. At least one resistant bacterium has to be present prior to the start of the antibiotic treatment.

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

Chilli

davidH:

Quote:
You can't see God but you can feel and see his presence. I guess you could use the wind as an example, if I where to ask you why u believe in the wind what would you say? You can't see the wind but you know there is wind because you can feel it and you can see the effects of it's power.
End quote.

The problem with this analogy is that the wind can be measured and studied. Because of this, we know what the wind is and how it is formed. I have never heard of anyone being able to measure/detect God in any way (other than through emotional feelings; which could mean anything).

Quote:
I believe that the miracles that are recorded in the Bible did happen and there is no natural explanation for them.
The reason I believe they happened is that the Christian faith would never have been able to grow unless they were real. Jesus too had to have existed.
End quote.

There are many different religious faiths in the world today; some of which appear to be mutually exclusive. All of these faiths grew from small beginnings; using your logic from the above quote; that would mean that they are all true also. History is full of failed religions that were once followed by many people. Remember, the worth of an idea is not dependent on the number of people who hold it to be true, only on the worth of the idea.

As to your missionary story, are you saying that it is some kind of miracle that care package to an orphanage would contain a hot water bottle and a doll? Wouldn`t it have been a better miracle if God had stopped the water bottle from breaking in the first place? If that is the standard of evidence you need to declare something a miracle, its no wonder that you are a believer.

lpetrich

DavidH, those are such piddling miracles. Why not some REALLY big ones? Ones worthy of an omnipotent being.

Like creating a giant cross made out of diamond in every major city in the world -- including creating one on top of the Kaaba in Mecca.

Oolon Colluphid

Too right. God the intercontinental goods facilitator?! Yeah right. If he, an omnipotent being, was so concerned for this child, surely there are less round-the-houses ways of keeping it alive than getting a hot water bottle from thousands of miles away -- like, maybe not letting its mother die, for starters.

By their limitations shall ye know them. Like the oft-reported gold fillings in people's teeth. If god wanted them to have better teeth, surely he could regrow the enamel? David, why are the actual acts of this all-powerful god of yours so pathetic?

Ah, but there's an easy reason why not that. As Bill Hicks used to say, when Jesus comes back, d'you think he's ever going to want to see another cross? Wearing a crucifix at the second coming would be like walking up to Jackie Kennedy with a rifle pendant, saying "Just thinking of John, Jackie, just thinking of John..."

Oolon

Automaton

Islam only appeared 1500 years ago, that's 500 years after Christianity came onto the scene. It is now the largest religion in the world (with Christianity as a close second.) So, do you believe the teachings of Mohammed are the infallible word of Allah?

davidH

Automaton, you have taken the quote out of context. In no way was I implying that the Christian faith must be real because it grew. Read what I said and you'll understand. - I was talking about the miracles.


Yes, all did grow from small beginnings. But how many actually taught that their God died and rose again?
Maybe you have already read some of the work of 4 athesist thinkers - if not then it's worth reading.

1. Sigmund Freud - religion arises out of guilt and fear of nature.

2. Karl Marx - religion is used to keep the lower classes happy

3. Ludwig Feuerbach - religion is only wish fufillment.

4. Friedrich Nietzsche - religion is rooted in man's weakness.

These have shown considerable insight into how and why different religions have come to be.

However these should also be viewed with the fact that there are just as many reasons for unbelief
such as

1. Fear of authority 2. Fear of exposure
3 Fear of God's "otherness".

These apply particulary to the Bible.

This is true and never did I say that Christianity is true because of the number of people that follow it.

But do you think the Christian faith could have grown if everything in the Bible (NT) had not been true? Would you believe in something as outrageous as the ressurection from the dead? Cause that is the message that we preach.

Out of interest is there any other religion that prophecied about it's leader, that tells its God died and rose because he loved us?

As to your question; Maybe it would have been a better miracle if God had stopped the hotwater bottle from bursting - maybe then that is the kind of evidience that you require to become a believer...... except how would one know that God did a miracle? How then could God be glorified?
Maybe you were to be killed today but God miracluously saved you........what miracle is that? Is it infact a miracle?

The fact that the hotwater bottle arrived isn't the miracle.....it's the fact that the little girl prayed that it would arrive, and also added that a little doll would be sent - and everything she had asked for arrived the next day!
The package had been on the way for probably about 2 weeks.
That is the evidience - that God would be willing to listen to a little girl's prayer in the future and answer her prayer in the past.
A God who is not limited to the boundaries of time
- that is an omnipotent being!

You ask why God doesn't do miracles like put big diamond crosses everywhere...... that would only be taken down and fashioned into diamonds so that men could get richer. No one would care about the fact that they were crosses or how they appreared only about how much money this was going to get them.

Yes, but everyone will die sometime in their lives and this was God's time for this lady, if the lady had lived then you would not be hearing about this miracle now. Maybe that's why God allowed this to happen, because he knew that it would be told and people brought to know him.
Things happen that we can't understand at the time but from hind's sight we always see what fruit(good things) God has brought out of it.

I have heard of this gold filling and I am uneasy with it, not sure why but I just am. As you have said, fillings turning to gold aren't typical of God. I'm not bounding him in anyway - he could do this if he wanted, but something sets alarm bells ringing.
I'll explain what I mean;

Matthew 7 v 21-23

"Not everyone who says to me "Lord Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day,"Lord,Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons, and perform many miracles?" Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away with from me you evildoers"

Revelation 13 v 13
talking about the beast (satan or demonic prophet)

"And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven in full view of men."

You see not everything is of God, Satan is at work too, decieving and turning people away from God. The fact that gold was made in the miracles you were talking about, makes the miracles more material, and more centred on money...etc.
Therefore hence the reason I am weary when hearing of these things.

You ask why the acts of my God are so pathetic? Are they?
Was sending the waterbottle pathetic if it saved the baby's life and glorified God? Is healing someone from their disability and illness pathetic? Is raising someone from the dead pathetic? Is turning away a storm in order that a meeting could continue pathetic?
Is the splitting of a puplit in a church pathetic?

You see every miracle is done to show God's power, out of love, and to glorify God.

Yeah, I think I will writen what happened to the puplit here. Since you ask for evidience of God's power. This is in a book and so can easily be verified.

Right, can't do that this time cause I can't find the book! Where are things when you need them! lol
I'll try and find that later.

About the antibiotics and all, I'll accept what you say about them.
Though I have one question, what difference then does stopping the antibiotics half way through the course? Surely that would be benefical because you have lowered the level of bacteria to a sufficient level that the body can quickly deal with and at the same time allow the non resistant bacteria to compete with the resistant bacteria so it doesn't flare up in numbers.
But maybe there's another reason.

Have to head on here.