Darkblade

art:
2. A system of rules serving to facilitate the performance of certain actions; a system of principles and rules for attaining a desired end; method of doing well some special work; -- often contradistinguished from science or speculative principles; as, the art of building or engraving; the art of war; the art of navigation. [essentially, a way of doing something]

deity:
1. A god or goddess.

energy:
2. an exertion of force.

god:
1. God a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

goddess:
1. A female being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people.

force:
1. The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power.

law:
12. a. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met.

magic:
1. any art that invokes supernatural powers.

material:
1. Of, relating to, or composed of matter.
6. having substance or capable of being treated as fact; not imaginary.

matter:
1. a. Something that occupies space and can be perceived by one or more senses; a physical body, a physical substance, or the universe as a whole.

miracle:
1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.
Darkblade: An event that is (absolutely; completely, and universally; even if you were omniscient) inexplicable (could not have happened; i.e., impossible) by the laws of nature and so is (objectively; definitively; truly) supernatural in origin or an act of God.

natural:
2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature.

nature:
2. The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world.

phenomenon:
4. An observable event.

power:
3. Strength or force exerted or capable of being exerted; might.

supernatural:
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces. [again, I use “does” instead of “seems to”, so that objectivity is not lost]
3. Of or relating to a deity.

world:
2. The universe.

universe:
1. All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.

(I included some of these definitions in case clarification was needed for the use or meaning of something.)

The definition given for miracle by dictionary.reference.com is obviously unsatisfactory. Anything could theoretically appear inexplicable by the laws of nature and so be held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God. I suggest that my definition be used. If it isn’t you descend into complete subjectivity.

From my definition, you get:
1. A miracle must be impossible by the laws of nature.
2. Miracles are supernatural in origin and/or an act of God.
Going on:
3. Supernatural things are things that exist outside of the natural world.
4. Because of 1 and 3, any miracles that God performs must be supernatural.
5. Because of 2 and 4, all miracles are supernatural.
6. Because of 2, miracles must be invoked (they are supernatural in origin (how could it have an origin if it weren’t invoked?) or an act of God).
7. Magic is the invoking of supernatural powers to do something.

Conclusion: Because of 5, 6, and 7, all miracles performed by using magic.

So I don’t really see how miracles and magic are two different things; all miracles must be magical.

(I do not believe in miracles, the supernatural, or any gods; I used the terms as if they were true to prove my point.)

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Darkblade ]</p>

Mageth

Mornin' Amie!

what would be the "evidence" you are referring to be in a God belief when it is based in faith?

Pretty much the same kind of evidence I listed for Santa. A book, stories, the word of one's parents, etc.

To quote Kally, "God is Santa Claus for adults."

Biff the unclean

reality? really? I see that your perception has become your reality in this case...
Huh, what?! I assume you wrote that to portray me as being too narrow in my views of the world but it is not coming across as something sane. Perhaps you would care to elaborate.

believing in a few miracles is not turning ones back on outside "reality"
Outside reality? What the heck does that mean?
It is completely turning your back on reality. Add miracles to the mix and EVERYTHING we know is wrong. 2 plus 2 would no longer always equal 4. You might get up one morning and find-that by some miracle- 2 plus 2 now equaled 4.5, there would be no way to know what it was going to equal any time you added them. There would be no way to know anything anymore.

because one believes in some miracles does not mean they are closed off to knowledge of any kind Biff..
Unless you have closed yourself off to everything we have learned from the Renaissance until now you wouldn't believe in them.

I hardly think I close my mind to science I am a biology teacher...
Oh my…..
miracles are not the same as magic dear...
Magic is nothing more than a secular term for miracle. Not even secular, as the word comes from Magi who were priests of the Demigod Mithra (who the Jesus character was modeled after)

But you do suggest an interesting point in you shying away from the word "magic." There are so many aspects of religious belief (miracles, faith, dogma, etc.) that if you applied them to any other subject at all, other than God, you would have your sanity questioned. Yet paint on a thin coat of religion and you can get away with anything.
Imagine if something as simple as "the consumer protection act" was applied to our nation's churches. Every Pastor would be up on charges of consumer fraud. Yet Benny Hinn (sp?) is driven around by his chauffeur while "Miss Cleo" is locked up. Had she told her "marks" that Jesus said they would meet someone tall, dark and handsome, she'd be a free woman.

I know what (open minded) means Biff thank you for the definition...
Then you must have learned between writing your question and the time I answered, because you didn't seem to know as you wrote.

I think there are some things in this universe that we just don't have answers to..
Why do people always say things like this about the subject of psychics and assorted who-do?
First, you aren't claiming that you don't know something. You're claiming that you know it's psychic ability.
Second while there are things we don't know, this isn't one of them. Psychic ability has been studied scientifically for close to two hundred years now--longer that almost any other subject.
No one has been found to be psychic.

No. I also dont think crayons left in a hot car melting into the shape of Jesus' face is a miracle either...
And why not? Thousands do. Not a month goes by that you don't read about believers seeing Jesus in the gnarled trunk of a tree (last summer in Washington State) or Central Americans venerating the scorch marks on a taco because it looks something like the Blessed Virgin.
What allows you to say that Lourdes is a miracle and the Holy Crayolas are not? They both consist of a bunch of people getting together to see something that really isn't there. Are miracles to be judged on a sliding scale?

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Biff the unclean ]</p>

Amie

Biff you're not even remotely trying to listen to what I am writing without ridiculing are you?

please...add a few miracles to the world and there is no way to know anything?

ok Biff...there is no arguing this point with you, you seem very set in your views..its really sad you think this way.

how lovely

I knew what the definition was then as well Biff. Nice speculating though.

perhaps you should go back and reread my post. Does the term "I could be wrong" ring a bell???
besides I never claimed to "know" I claimed to believe in miracles. Huge difference Biff. I don't think anyone can really "know" just like you can't possibly "know" there is no God.

ok Biff, I just don't see how that can be scientifically measured in all entirety.

I don't see people miraculously healed on the same level as some melted crayons Biff.

Amie

Hi Mageth
How are you?

not a point of view I share but thanks for answering hon

Mad Kally

Amie: I don't see people miraculously healed on the same level as some melted crayons Biff.

I don't understand how grown-ups can hang on to the magical thinking of a child.

God is the only childhood myth carried over into adulthood. You are told that this particular myth is really true. It's kind of sad. Unless of course, someone is trying to force their beliefs on me. Then, I get MAD. But that's another story.

Amie

I don't view it as magical thinking. You do. such is life.

Mad Kally

Such is the reason I like to hang out here with other atheists.

People with somatoform disorders get up out of their wheelchairs and walk all the time. Nothing miraculous about it...

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

Infinity Lover

I strongly doubt she'd teach miracles in class Biff.

Mad Kally

No, that would be against the law here in California. I just kills my fundie mom that she can't preach about Jesus or have the kids pray in the classroom.