Alethias

Self-determination is your excuse for hating people who aren't like you?

What if your self determination impinges on my self-determination?

If your version of self determination meant all white supremacists went off by themselves and never bothered anyone else, it'd be a good thing.

Nice fantasy if you really believe that, but real life never works that way.

thumper

I dunno, Sweden wasn't very imperialistic

josephpalazzo

Then your question is wrongly phrased. Self-determination has to do with a group declaring itself to have a state/government, which gives them sovereignty. In most cases there is an ethnic or religious minority seeking independence from a majority to escape prejudice or persecution. After WW2, the right to self-determination became understood to apply only to states and not to peoples, and to be circumscribed by the principles of territorial integrity and non-interference in internal affairs. Many of the newly independent former colonies faced secessionist and irredentist movements and therefore there was an international consensus that self-determination did not apply to these movements.

RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From thumper:
Are you just being racist, willfully stupid, provocative or all three? The use of the term "colored folks" is considered racist. If you didn't know it before, learn it now.

RED DAVE

Alethias

Well, if Sweden meets your white supremacist fantasies, move there.

IsItJustMe

Thumper:

1. I still don't have any clear idea what you think about who gets to declare themselves a country and who doesn't, what the rules should be, etc. I kind of have the idea that you've given up on the whole "if I own my house I can secede anytime I want" position. So what is your position now.

2. What on earth is the big deal about what color your neighbors are? I mean, rather than focusing on the absolute, god-given right of a person who owns land to discriminate racially in who he rents or sells to, why not ask what the big deal is? To be honest, although I disagree with gated communities, I at least understand them: People want to live only among people of similar wealth who have been through a background check because they are willing to pay a price in isolation for what they think will be a safer community. But your white supremacist compound would let in Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Timothy McVeigh, Richard Butler... Very violent people that no sensible person, white, brown or black, would want for a neighbor.

Bomb#20

You've got to be kidding. Whose conquests do you think Napoleon studied?*

[ObOnTopic: Is it morally wrong for a group of people to have self-determination? I don't know, is it morally wrong for pigs to fly? A group can't possibly have self determination because a group isn't a self.]

(* In order to avoid duplicating. Just because you're imperialistic doesn't mean you're good at it.)

Matt the Medic

Moving to MF&P.

intrepidation, pd mod

Sarpedon

Welcome to MF&P.

there seems to be several moral issues here:

1. The question of the rightness of using property rights and physical power to annex sovereignty to a particular group

2. The question of "free association" and whether or not its intrinsically exclusive, and whether this is ok.

3. The right of a state to coerce obedience from dissenting citizens.

There are others, but I just thought I'd try to focus the discussion on morals, since thats what we are all about here! Have fun, and behave!

thumper

Sweden is becoming an Islamic caliphate, that's why many are leaving