Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Marduk · 08-18-2003, 04:34 PM

�$500! That's either absurdly high or absurdly low.�

I thought it was high considering he was only around a year old at the time and he doesn�t have any kind of pedigree papers or anything.
Getting a dog license in my state requires only paying $6, a little less if the dog is neutered. Most homeowners insurance will cover dog bites unless they specify a certain breed you can�t have. I�ll bet they�d cancel the policy after the first bite unless you got rid of the offending dog.

reprise · 08-18-2003, 06:32 PM

The Companion Animal Act here requires all dogs to be microchipped (it's illegal to sell or give away a dog which isn't microchipped), and a discount is offered for the registration of neutered dogs, but neither measure really addresses the issue of irresponsible pet ownership.

While I'm all for owners whose animals cause harm being hit with huge financial penalties, I would not like to see pet ownership per se become a luxury which only the affluent can afford. Some of the worst dog owners I've encountered are those who've paid thousands of dollars for a purebred dog du jour but who are incapable of making anything other than a financial investment in the animal.

john fraz · 08-20-2003, 03:28 PM

by reprise
> One thing I will say - and I know that many will disagree with me - is that no-one should acquire a dog unless they are prepared to meet all of the costs associated with owning a dog, and that includes making the property on which the dog is being kept "escape-proof" and paying for obedience training if you don't already know how to train a dog not to leave it's property even if the gate is accidentally left open : it should sure as hell have been taught not to attack just because it gets out and spots someone unfamiliar on the street!

Absolutely. especially for a high-maintenance dog like the one originally talked about here.

> Please remember that even non-aggressive dogs can cause children harm. We have a dog in our street who runs out and barks at passersby. She wouldn't hurt attack anyone, of that I'm sure, but I fear that one day she will scare a child walking past and that child will step onto the road in response to her barking - possibly into the path of an oncoming car.

There's also the possibility that a normally non-aggressive dog can be goaded into attacking by a kid that screams and runs, inviting automatic hostility from the dog.
This is especially a problem with high-strung dogs, and doubly why the owner should be expected to take extra care.

A friend told me of an incident where someone he knew (A Vietnam 'vet/Biker, no less) was jumped by a dog. While it caused him a few stitches damage through his clothing on his arm, and before it could do worse or get to his face, he grabbed its throat and crushed its larynx...

In any jurisdiction, self-defense is justifiable. Most would say killing force is justified on an attacking dog -you won't get charged with anything if you can show that you had real cause. Just as it's justified homicide if you kill an attacking person as long as you have reasonable proof of real cause for fear.

It's difficult to lay out universal ground rules, but generally dogs won't try to tackle anything which looks too formidable (even the most aggressive dog is a cowardly bully at heart).
Don't run, take a confident and maybe reasonably hostile stance if it's aggressive. Maybe act like you're picking up something to throw or swing (universal instinctive language).
You aren't beneath the dog in social rank, let it know that it has no business coming at you as if you are an intruder when you're not actually in its territory.

I like the scene in the Mel Gibson movie where he & Renee Russo encounter guard dogs. He seduces them with playful posture (another part of universal dog language!) and food... If nothing else, baffle them by short-circuiting their hostility. I've used this tactic when trying to get friend's dogs to not keep barking at me while I'm visiting in their homes.

I read in a book on Jack Russell terriers (another high-strung breed) that if your dog gets hostile with another, don't don't simply pull them apart. With their hierarchical nature, that enforces to them both the notion that there is just cause for hostility and establishment of a pecking order.
Both owners should take them by the collar to establish control on the situation, and get them to introduce themselves to each other while the humans do the same. Enforce the idea that humans are the equal masters of the situation, and the dogs are beneath both humans, and co-equal in that status.

lisarea · 08-20-2003, 03:40 PM

For some reason, it seems that people are rarely prepared to defend themselves against dogs like the biker guy did.

When I was a kid, the next-door neighbors had an aggressive dog that they'd just let roam the neighborhood sometimes.

One day, the dog was out, and the mail had just come. My first thought was to wait until the dog was gone, and then it occurred to me, "It's just a DOG. Sure it has sharp teeth, but I'm bigger and smarter than it, and I can kick its ass."

So I went out to get the mail. Predictably, it ran up to me, snapping and growling. I stuck my foot in its face and told it to GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME, and made a fist, preparing to punch it in the face. I wasn't planning to catch it or restrain it, as I'd seen people try before, mind you. I was going to beat it up. Not only did the dog run away, but its owner started yelling out the window, "What are you doing to my dog? Leave my dog alone!"

Yeah, she'd been doing it on purpose. The dog never bugged me again, because it knew I'd kick its ass. Oddly, too, the lady was somehow able to keep it confined a little better, too.

Bloop · 08-21-2003, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lisarea
For some reason, it seems that people are rarely prepared to defend themselves against dogs like the biker guy did.

I have had one experience of this kind. I was walking the old (12) family schnauzer a few years back when she was attacked by two german shepherds that came out of nowhere.

A loud yell "GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM HER YOU SHITFACED COCKBASTARD" and a swift, hard kick aimed at the rear end of what seemed to be the leader of the "pack" and they both ran away as fast as they had appeared.

It was clear to me that my dog had no chance in hell of defending herself and the attack was far beyond anything playful. In a situation like that I don't think that the violence in my reaction was too much. I reacted on instinct but I think I would have had serious problems if I was going to try and separate the dogs in a more peaceful manner, at least on my own as the situation were.

These two dogs were not attacking me and if a dog isn't seriously disturbed it would rather run than get into a fight where it could get seriously hurt. Self-preservation and all that.

I got a look from my dog after "the fight" that seemed to say "If I had been a few years younger I would have tore that idiot a new asshole but thanks for stepping in for an old lady like that". Or maybe I am just imagining things now...

Bloop

three4jump · 08-21-2003, 10:31 AM

As several of you have pointed out in your stories, a dog that attacks is not executing some well thought out plan: he is just follow a reflexive urge or instinct. When he encounters something unexpected, it may break him out of that mode.

Back when I had only one dog, we were walking in the park and Porter was on a leash. We had heard of a collie being attacked by a pit bull recently and losing a chunk of muscle in the fight. I had this in mind when a pit bull came charging at us from out of the bushes, running at us full speed for fifty yards barking its head off. Porter was twice his size, but I didn't want to find out if the pit bull would lock on and not let go like the stories I've heard. Just when it got close enough, I gave it a kick under the ribs that lifted it off the ground a bit and made it yelp with surprise, although I'm certain it was not hurt badly. It went away without another peep. The owner of the dog, who I believe was one of a gang of skinheads, started to call his dog only after it yelped, not while it was rushing at us for fifty yards.

This is probably of no help to the little girl who required several surgeries after being bitten by a pit bull, but for someone who has to deal with dogs and is capable of defending himself or herself, it might be a way to send a message without having to sustain a bite or have a dog killed.

08-20-2003, 03:28 PM	#73
john fraz Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Boulder, Co. USA Posts: 8	Doggie politics by reprise > One thing I will say - and I know that many will disagree with me - is that no-one should acquire a dog unless they are prepared to meet all of the costs associated with owning a dog, and that includes making the property on which the dog is being kept "escape-proof" and paying for obedience training if you don't already know how to train a dog not to leave it's property even if the gate is accidentally left open : it should sure as hell have been taught not to attack just because it gets out and spots someone unfamiliar on the street! Absolutely. especially for a high-maintenance dog like the one originally talked about here. > Please remember that even non-aggressive dogs can cause children harm. We have a dog in our street who runs out and barks at passersby. She wouldn't hurt attack anyone, of that I'm sure, but I fear that one day she will scare a child walking past and that child will step onto the road in response to her barking - possibly into the path of an oncoming car. There's also the possibility that a normally non-aggressive dog can be goaded into attacking by a kid that screams and runs, inviting automatic hostility from the dog. This is especially a problem with high-strung dogs, and doubly why the owner should be expected to take extra care. A friend told me of an incident where someone he knew (A Vietnam 'vet/Biker, no less) was jumped by a dog. While it caused him a few stitches damage through his clothing on his arm, and before it could do worse or get to his face, he grabbed its throat and crushed its larynx... In any jurisdiction, self-defense is justifiable. Most would say killing force is justified on an attacking dog -you won't get charged with anything if you can show that you had real cause. Just as it's justified homicide if you kill an attacking person as long as you have reasonable proof of real cause for fear. It's difficult to lay out universal ground rules, but generally dogs won't try to tackle anything which looks too formidable (even the most aggressive dog is a cowardly bully at heart). Don't run, take a confident and maybe reasonably hostile stance if it's aggressive. Maybe act like you're picking up something to throw or swing (universal instinctive language). You aren't beneath the dog in social rank, let it know that it has no business coming at you as if you are an intruder when you're not actually in its territory. I like the scene in the Mel Gibson movie where he & Renee Russo encounter guard dogs. He seduces them with playful posture (another part of universal dog language!) and food... If nothing else, baffle them by short-circuiting their hostility. I've used this tactic when trying to get friend's dogs to not keep barking at me while I'm visiting in their homes. I read in a book on Jack Russell terriers (another high-strung breed) that if your dog gets hostile with another, don't don't simply pull them apart. With their hierarchical nature, that enforces to them both the notion that there is just cause for hostility and establishment of a pecking order. Both owners should take them by the collar to establish control on the situation, and get them to introduce themselves to each other while the humans do the same. Enforce the idea that humans are the equal masters of the situation, and the dogs are beneath both humans, and co-equal in that status.

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08-18-2003, 04:34 PM	#71
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	�$500! That's either absurdly high or absurdly low.� I thought it was high considering he was only around a year old at the time and he doesn�t have any kind of pedigree papers or anything. Getting a dog license in my state requires only paying $6, a little less if the dog is neutered. Most homeowners insurance will cover dog bites unless they specify a certain breed you can�t have. I�ll bet they�d cancel the policy after the first bite unless you got rid of the offending dog.

08-18-2003, 06:32 PM	#72
reprise Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sydney Posts: 3,997	The Companion Animal Act here requires all dogs to be microchipped (it's illegal to sell or give away a dog which isn't microchipped), and a discount is offered for the registration of neutered dogs, but neither measure really addresses the issue of irresponsible pet ownership. While I'm all for owners whose animals cause harm being hit with huge financial penalties, I would not like to see pet ownership per se become a luxury which only the affluent can afford. Some of the worst dog owners I've encountered are those who've paid thousands of dollars for a purebred dog du jour but who are incapable of making anything other than a financial investment in the animal.

08-20-2003, 03:40 PM	#74
lisarea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 5,550	For some reason, it seems that people are rarely prepared to defend themselves against dogs like the biker guy did. When I was a kid, the next-door neighbors had an aggressive dog that they'd just let roam the neighborhood sometimes. One day, the dog was out, and the mail had just come. My first thought was to wait until the dog was gone, and then it occurred to me, "It's just a DOG. Sure it has sharp teeth, but I'm bigger and smarter than it, and I can kick its ass." So I went out to get the mail. Predictably, it ran up to me, snapping and growling. I stuck my foot in its face and told it to GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME, and made a fist, preparing to punch it in the face. I wasn't planning to catch it or restrain it, as I'd seen people try before, mind you. I was going to beat it up. Not only did the dog run away, but its owner started yelling out the window, "What are you doing to my dog? Leave my dog alone!" Yeah, she'd been doing it on purpose. The dog never bugged me again, because it knew I'd kick its ass. Oddly, too, the lady was somehow able to keep it confined a little better, too.

08-21-2003, 10:31 AM	#76
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	As several of you have pointed out in your stories, a dog that attacks is not executing some well thought out plan: he is just follow a reflexive urge or instinct. When he encounters something unexpected, it may break him out of that mode. Back when I had only one dog, we were walking in the park and Porter was on a leash. We had heard of a collie being attacked by a pit bull recently and losing a chunk of muscle in the fight. I had this in mind when a pit bull came charging at us from out of the bushes, running at us full speed for fifty yards barking its head off. Porter was twice his size, but I didn't want to find out if the pit bull would lock on and not let go like the stories I've heard. Just when it got close enough, I gave it a kick under the ribs that lifted it off the ground a bit and made it yelp with surprise, although I'm certain it was not hurt badly. It went away without another peep. The owner of the dog, who I believe was one of a gang of skinheads, started to call his dog only after it yelped, not while it was rushing at us for fifty yards. This is probably of no help to the little girl who required several surgeries after being bitten by a pit bull, but for someone who has to deal with dogs and is capable of defending himself or herself, it might be a way to send a message without having to sustain a bite or have a dog killed.

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