Freethought & Rationalism Archive

the_cave · 03-14-2003, 12:26 PM

Here we go!

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Originally posted by Aethari
Beliefs in Satan with Christians are generally a pretty tricky thing to deal with, because of the wide nature of way in which believers treat our favourite Prince of the Damned Amoung fairly apathetic Christians, I doubt Satan ever truly crosses their minds. They'll defend the existence of God if pressed, since it's the foundation of their belief, but the existence/power/influence of Satan is basically irrelevant. However, with fundamentalists, you're bound to see Satan blamed for everything from wars to their pens running out of ink. It really varies too much to give a blanket answer.

Absolutely true. I couldn't agree more.

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However, theologically speaking, an anti-good force is necessary to preserve the stark dualism that runs through Christianity.

Ok, wait a minute--I don't deny that Christianity has historically been somewhat dualist--but it's not absolutely dualist. Good is usually assumed to be more powerful than evil. Indeed, some perfectly orthodox Christians have been universalists--believing, for example, in the ultimate redemption of all evil. Not exactly the same thing as dualism.

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The entire concepts of grace/faith/salvation/repentance revolve around the necessity of a "wrong choice"-- if Satan or some equally evil alternative didn't exist, there would be no evil and hence no need for an organized belief structure. If *everything* is good, religion is unnecessary.

Sure! But...uh, I don't mean to point out anything obvious or anything, but everything is *not* good. Or, rather, we humans have experiences of things being wrong, or upsetting, or painful, or evil. That's just a fact. That's the starting point of religion--religion itself wasn't the starting point.

the_cave · 03-14-2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aethari
But Satan *can't* be evil, if we accept the standard crap from the apologists:

P1) God will only allow evil where that evil allows a greater good.
P2) God could have destroyed Satan.

First assumption. Besides, you're assuming Satan is a personal force, which not all Christians accept. If Satan is merely a personification of evil, it can't be destroyed without destroying freedom. But even granting your claim...

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P3) God allowed Satan (the greatest of all evils) to exist.
P4) Therefore through Satan a greater good must be accomplished.
P5) Satan is the only possible way in which this greater good could be realized..

Next assumption. This is one common strain of standard Christian apologetics, I agree. There are others.

I would argue that it's not the fact of Satan/evil existing that is desirable--it's the possibility for freedom that's desirable, which includes the possibility for evil.

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P6) Evil, by definition, implies something undesirable.
P7) Satan is not undesirable, since without him, this greater good is not possible..

Without his possibility, not his actuality.

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P8) Satan is therefore desirable in our universe.
C) Therefore, by 6+8, Satan is not evil..

His possibility is, ironically, desirable (as any freedom-lover would admit, even an atheist). His actuality, however, is still evil (just as actual evil acts are still evil, even though the freedom that precedes them is not.)

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To label anything in the best logically possible world 'evil' is absurd, because without that thing, the world would be worse off than it was before.

I'm not a fan of "best of all possible worlds" arguments (which I think were only developed by Leibniz, who was I believe a Deist), but I will say that even "the best of all possible words" still admits degrees of evil. I think Leibniz' phrase was inexact and confusing--perhaps he meant to say the best of all possible worlds that god could have created. Worlds with freedom are unpredictable; you can't guarantee ahead of time how much evil will become present in them. Again, I dislike such arguments, all I'm saying is that Christian theodicy (the explanation of evil) is more complicated than it's been portrayed to you.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 01:12 PM

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Originally posted by Ab_Normal
Nice try. I'm actually proceeding from a lack of belief in any gods. Thanks for playing.

No, you are twisting the God concept into something it's not just for the sake of deriding it.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 01:15 PM

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Originally posted by xsquid
Okay, how about if He says He is?

"I will bring evil on the house of Jeroboam..." (1 Kings 14:10)

One of many examples of God's demonstrated acts of evil. Or take the book of Job--the poor man suffers because of a stupid bet between God and Satan, and the only reason Satan does all that nasty business is because God gave him permission to.
That's Satan's real role--to do God's dirty work. In the OT God mostly did it himself, but in the NT we had a kinder, gentler God, one who wouldn't dream of drowning the world; so someone else had to get that duty. And Satan had experience--look what he did with Job! So Satan got press-ganged into it, because evil couldn't possibly come from a good-guy God.

God's actions are always just. Because it is He who decides what is good and what is evil for every living thing in existence, His actions cannot be evil unless He Himself sees it as such.

Therefore, God can murder, rape, whatever, and He has done no evil.

Mageth · 03-14-2003, 01:16 PM

the_cave:

What are your views on heaven? Is evil possible in heaven?

Soma · 03-14-2003, 01:17 PM

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Originally posted by Psycho Economist
How is it not a judgment to say "if your god exists, then he is a needy, sadistic unfit parent of a deity"? Your belief that mortal judgments are not binding on your deity does not make such judgment impossible. That said, just because the judgments are not binding does not make them untrue.

Thank you. Come again.

You are a finite being with limited powers. Just because you declare something evil does not make it evil.

Only God has that power. His judgement is supreme, yours is temporal.

Mageth · 03-14-2003, 01:20 PM

God's actions are always just. Because it is He who decides what is good and what is evil for every living thing in existence, His actions cannot be evil unless He Himself sees it as such.

Therefore, God can murder, rape, whatever, and He has done no evil.

Wow. So then to god "justice" is totally arbitrary, and the morality he imposes on us is totally arbitrary as well. So much for moral objectivism, and for god as a good source of morality for humankind. You do realize that you are describing an amoral god. Does that fit into your concept of god?

Ab_Normal · 03-14-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soma
God's actions are always just. Because it is He who decides what is good and what is evil for every living thing in existence, His actions cannot be evil unless He Himself sees it as such.

Therefore, God can murder, rape, whatever, and He has done no evil.

And you say I'm twisting the god concept? Interesting.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 01:22 PM

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Originally posted by Philosoft

I agree. However, your "objective, philosophical truth" amounts to "God does what God does." You lack a higher standard with which to judge God's actions. Thus, it's possible that God intends to lead us to our collective deaths soon and you have nothing but God's word, which you already mentioned is the standard in and of itself, to suggest otherwise.
[/b]

If God's intentions are to slaughter us all, then what's it to you? If God thinks that is the right thing to do, then it is. It's simple as that. There can be no standard to judge God. His is beyond our ability to judge. I can say I find God's actions repugnant, but what I say has no affect on His actual nature.

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Nor, presumably, are they sufficient grounds to accept God.

No, but we hardly have God itself as proof either way. We have only our concepts, which are mere accumulations of assertions. So, at this point, God has done some evil actions. And you have only God's word, which has already been shown arbitrary, to say otherwise.

God is a sound concept. Those who declare God evil fail to understand that it is not evil for God to do what we perceive as evil. He operates on different rules, namely, His own. He has prescribed separate rules for man to follow.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
God's actions are always just. Because it is He who decides what is good and what is evil for every living thing in existence, His actions cannot be evil unless He Himself sees it as such.

Therefore, God can murder, rape, whatever, and He has done no evil.

Wow. So then to god "justice" is totally arbitrary, and the morality he imposes on us is totally arbitrary as well. So much for moral objectivism, and for god as a good source of morality for humankind. You do realize that you are describing an amoral god. Does that fit into your concept of god?

Your implied presumption that moral objectivism can exist without God is fallacious. God may arbitrarily create moral codes, but they are still objective morals because His power is infinite. Remember, He can shape everything as He wishes it to be.

If God wants murder to be good, then so it shall be.

As for whether I am describing an inherently amoral God or not, well, if God thinks what He is doing is moral, then He's moral, isn't He?

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03-14-2003, 01:16 PM	#35
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	the_cave: What are your views on heaven? Is evil possible in heaven?

03-14-2003, 01:20 PM	#37
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	God's actions are always just. Because it is He who decides what is good and what is evil for every living thing in existence, His actions cannot be evil unless He Himself sees it as such. Therefore, God can murder, rape, whatever, and He has done no evil. Wow. So then to god "justice" is totally arbitrary, and the morality he imposes on us is totally arbitrary as well. So much for moral objectivism, and for god as a good source of morality for humankind. You do realize that you are describing an amoral god. Does that fit into your concept of god?

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