Freethought & Rationalism Archive

09-27-2002, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hubrys Polymetis:
Cause and effect would do away with free will. I think that that is painfully obvious.

. . . unless, of course, we are beyond desire in which case we do have free will and that is also painfully obvious.

09-27-2002, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Sammi:


Example : if your perception of NOWtime is based on a sampling rate P, and your action base is based on a motion base of P+i, then life will pass you by like a true determinist.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

But a true Determinist is a Freeman. Is that correct?

Kent Stevens · 09-27-2002, 06:43 PM

The clearest interpretation is to say that free will does not exist. It is imaginary just as the soul is imaginary. There is no magic property called free will that allows people to act any differently from what they did in the past. If we had the chance we would do the same things that we did in the past, all over again. This is because if you replay any system in time it does the same things over and over again. The only disclaimer might be for quantum events, but quantum events by themselves can apply to any system.

I think it is disingenuous to reinterpret what free will means so that you can still use the term. It is similar to trying to reinterpret the word soul, even though you do not believe that the soul exists. It is similar to reinterpreting the word god, even though you do not believe that god exists.

Even if you do not believe in free will, you still tend to use words like decisions and choices. This is even though these words tend to reinforce an artificial distinction between systems, as all systems have alternatives open to them.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Kent Stevens ]

09-27-2002, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent Stevens:

as all systems have alternatives open to them.

The whole point made by the Freeman is that we do not have to be a system. We can be a solitary individual with an undivided identity of existence, such as "I AM" who is therefore free.

The argument has nothing to do with whether we are free to go the bathroom or not because if we have to go we have to go. It is about "who we are" and if we are divided in our own mind between the self and the ego.

Answerer · 09-27-2002, 10:00 PM

Some humans were born as beggers while some as princes. Some(humans) were born during wartimes while some born during the golden age of peace. A few was born crippled while most stayed healthy. Some are born in third world countries while others are much more fortunate.
So under various different kinds of influences, how is free will possible when one can't even choose his own birthplace, time and rights?

Calvan · 09-27-2002, 10:19 PM

It sseems to me that the questions we ask are predetermined by their answers that exist prior to our awareness of the question.

Calvan · 09-27-2002, 10:33 PM

Kent Stevens writes:

"The clearest interpretation is to say that free will does not exist. It is imaginary just as the soul is imaginary. There is no magic property called free will that allows people to act any differently from what they did in the past. If we had the chance we would do the same things that we did in the past, all over again. This is because if you replay any system in time it does the same things over and over again."

I obviously am unaware of what most people seem to know which is that free will does not exist! I have always assumed that I had the ability to alter my character and my content of thinking by making a choice about what I put into that content. It assumed I could indoctrinate myself with any given messages and if I were to cooperate with the process, I could indeed alter myself or change myself.

Calvan · 09-27-2002, 10:34 PM

Why do I get the feeling that I am really out of step here!!!

Solanalos · 09-27-2002, 10:52 PM

The argument against free will so far is based on cause and effect. Only as devil's advocate I say cause and effect may be illusion. On the quantum level, the position of an electron cannot be known unless a direct measurement is made. Further, the electron is not in any particular place until an observer observes it. It doesn't makeup it's "mind" until measured. This is a well known quantum physics peculiarity. This may imply (human) consciousness is possibly behind the cause and effect phenomenon.

Mr. Sammi · 09-28-2002, 06:46 AM

Amos, The Freeman is free in his box. Determinism exists to support the Freeman's box. Without the box or without the determinism of the box structure, the Freeman would have a difficult time getting things to go his way.

The scope of one's energy, itz power and effect, helps to play another part in free will. This is the part in causing our own effects by diverting other effects through the use of energy

The cause & effect of determinism in the light of free will, can be seen as "immediate cause" & "impending effect". One has no free will if the impending effect always affects us. If impending effects can be avoided, through perception, motion and energy expended, then one has the "will to act" while experiencing.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

09-27-2002, 06:43 PM	#13
Kent Stevens Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 484	The clearest interpretation is to say that free will does not exist. It is imaginary just as the soul is imaginary. There is no magic property called free will that allows people to act any differently from what they did in the past. If we had the chance we would do the same things that we did in the past, all over again. This is because if you replay any system in time it does the same things over and over again. The only disclaimer might be for quantum events, but quantum events by themselves can apply to any system. I think it is disingenuous to reinterpret what free will means so that you can still use the term. It is similar to trying to reinterpret the word soul, even though you do not believe that the soul exists. It is similar to reinterpreting the word god, even though you do not believe that god exists. Even if you do not believe in free will, you still tend to use words like decisions and choices. This is even though these words tend to reinforce an artificial distinction between systems, as all systems have alternatives open to them. [ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Kent Stevens ]</p>

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09-27-2002, 10:00 PM	#15
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Some humans were born as beggers while some as princes. Some(humans) were born during wartimes while some born during the golden age of peace. A few was born crippled while most stayed healthy. Some are born in third world countries while others are much more fortunate. So under various different kinds of influences, how is free will possible when one can't even choose his own birthplace, time and rights?

09-27-2002, 10:19 PM	#16
Calvan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Abbotsford, B.C., Canada Posts: 77	It sseems to me that the questions we ask are predetermined by their answers that exist prior to our awareness of the question.

09-27-2002, 10:33 PM	#17
Calvan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Abbotsford, B.C., Canada Posts: 77	Kent Stevens writes: "The clearest interpretation is to say that free will does not exist. It is imaginary just as the soul is imaginary. There is no magic property called free will that allows people to act any differently from what they did in the past. If we had the chance we would do the same things that we did in the past, all over again. This is because if you replay any system in time it does the same things over and over again." I obviously am unaware of what most people seem to know which is that free will does not exist! I have always assumed that I had the ability to alter my character and my content of thinking by making a choice about what I put into that content. It assumed I could indoctrinate myself with any given messages and if I were to cooperate with the process, I could indeed alter myself or change myself.

09-27-2002, 10:34 PM	#18
Calvan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Abbotsford, B.C., Canada Posts: 77	Why do I get the feeling that I am really out of step here!!!

09-27-2002, 10:52 PM	#19
Solanalos Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Under A Barbell Posts: 198	The argument against free will so far is based on cause and effect. Only as devil's advocate I say cause and effect may be illusion. On the quantum level, the position of an electron cannot be known unless a direct measurement is made. Further, the electron is not in any particular place until an observer observes it. It doesn't makeup it's "mind" until measured. This is a well known quantum physics peculiarity. This may imply (human) consciousness is possibly behind the cause and effect phenomenon.

09-28-2002, 06:46 AM	#20
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	Amos, The Freeman is free in his box. Determinism exists to support the Freeman's box. Without the box or without the determinism of the box structure, the Freeman would have a difficult time getting things to go his way. The scope of one's energy, itz power and effect, helps to play another part in free will. This is the part in causing our own effects by diverting other effects through the use of energy The cause & effect of determinism in the light of free will, can be seen as "immediate cause" & "impending effect". One has no free will if the impending effect always affects us. If impending effects can be avoided, through perception, motion and energy expended, then one has the "will to act" while experiencing. Sammi Na Boodie ()

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