Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Luiseach · 06-02-2003, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
Like I said, most people are clueless about the nature of our complex culture.

I don't know about that...that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation there, I would guess.

Luiseach · 06-02-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optional
Because if you say american culture is 'simple' or 'easy to understand' then you don't understand it.

Nope...that doesn't actually follow. It could be that Jat (and indeed any person who does understand any culture at all, including American, amongst many others) is smart.

;-)

Quote:

The one thing american culture is absolutely NOT is 'simple', for the simple reason that what american culture actually IS is basically a hodge-podge barely mixed stew of a thousand different competing cultures. I've lived on the west coast, the east coast, the south, the north, the midwest, in rural areas and in urban areas, in the city and in the suburnbs, and each and every place I've ever lived has had its own unique cultural flavor...

Cultural heterogeneity is not a distinctively 'American' characteristic.

Optional · 06-02-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach
Nope...that doesn't actually follow. It could be that Jat (and indeed any person who does understand any culture at all, including American, amongst many others) is smart.

Yes, in fact it does. I understand calculus, but I wouldn't say it was 'simple'. I understand object oriented programming, but I wouldn't say it was 'easy'. I have some understanding of quantum mechanics, but I would never say it was 'simple' OR 'easy'. Just because one is smart, it does not follow that anything you can understand is simple or easy.

Quote:

Cultural heterogeneity is not a distinctively 'American' characteristic.

Well, first of all, I didn't really mean to say that cultural heterogeneity is a 'distinctively american characteristic'. What I meant was that BECAUSE of the somewhat extreme cultural heterogeneity of america, the entire concept of 'american culture' is complex and difficult to quantify.

HOWEVER, now that I think about it, it does seem to me that cultural heterogeneity IS a somewhat distinctively american characteristic. Why do you disagree?

-me

Jat · 06-02-2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optional
I gotta side with Vork here in that you don't really understand American 'culture'. I agree somewhat and disagree somewhat with HIS definition, but it seems pretty clear YOU are wrong.

Why? Because if you say american culture is 'simple' or 'easy to understand' then you don't understand it. QED.

The one thing american culture is absolutely NOT is 'simple', for the simple reason that what american culture actually IS is basically a hodge-podge barely mixed stew of a thousand different competing cultures. I've lived on the west coast, the east coast, the south, the north, the midwest, in rural areas and in urban areas, in the city and in the suburnbs, and each and every place I've ever lived has had its own unique cultural flavor...

Sure, there are a lot of similarities, particular with the advent of the McCulture... And if you make the mistake of regarding these McSimilarities as the whole of american culture, it looks simple. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Even americans don't truly understand their own culture, from the POV of understanding the various sub-cultures of different regions. Witness here the big flap about the Georgia state flag... I talked to my parents over the weekend about that (they live in GA) and the entire viewpoint is just completely different than what I live with up here in Chi-town.

Anyway. That's all I wanted to say

-me

No one likes to know the truth about themselves when it doesn't match what they think it should be instead of what it actually is. The USA is a melting pot of cultures whereas Canada is multicultural with more real diversity in its makeup. We even have two official languages, even though there should only be one.

Canada:

Ethnic groups:

British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed (Me

) background 26%

USA:

Ethnic groups:

white 77.1%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1.5%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.3%, other 4% (2000)

Luiseach · 06-02-2003, 10:53 AM

All cultures are complex, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are difficult to comprehend.

Quote:

Originally posted by Optional
HOWEVER, now that I think about it, it does seem to me that cultural heterogeneity IS a somewhat distinctively american characteristic. Why do you disagree?

There are other cultures which are heterogeneous.

Jat · 06-02-2003, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach
All cultures are complex, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are difficult to comprehend.

There are other cultures which are heterogeneous.

Japan comes to mind.

Luiseach · 06-02-2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
Japan comes to mind.

...and Canada, as you mentioned....and Scotland, and England, and Ireland, and Germany, and India, and China, and South Africa, and Australia, and .... well, you know what I mean...

Not one of these nations has a monopoly on heterogeneity.

Gurdur · 06-02-2003, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach

...and Canada, as you mentioned....and Scotland, and England, and Ireland, and Germany, and India, and China, and South Africa, and Australia, and .... well, you know what I mean...

Not one of these nations has a monopoly on heterogeneity.

Luiseach, you are of course completely correct --- but I'm stll chuckling over the other's description of Japan as a poster-child for heterogeneity.
Mind-boggling.

BTW, nations that are really massively heterogenous are of course most sub-Saharan African countries, let alone the Balkans.

Optional · 06-02-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
No one likes to know the truth about themselves when it doesn't match what they think it should be instead of what it actually is. The USA is a melting pot of cultures whereas Canada is multicultural with more real diversity in its makeup. We even have two official languages, even though there should only be one.

Canada:

Ethnic groups:

British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed (Me ) background 26%

USA:

Ethnic groups:

white 77.1%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1.5%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.3%, other 4% (2000)

Um... Where did I mention Canada? I'm pretty sure the topic never came up... Well, anyhoo, there's a leeeetle problem with those statistics you use. 'White' as an ethnic group covers a whole HELL of a lot of territory... British Isles, French, Other European just to START with. If you're gonna compare ethnic group statistics, at least use the SAME ethnic groups...

As far as more actual diversity in canada... I dunno, I'm unfamiliar with canadian culture, but my FEEL is, you basically have three distinct groups: french canadians, native canadians, and everybody else. That is almost certainly a massive simplification, yes? Well, you seem to have about the same real feel for american culture as I have for canadian culture. There are HUGE differences between various sections of america... Hell, there are huge differences between various sections of any given city.

So anyway, by your definition what is the difference between 'melting pot' and 'multicultural'? Curious am I.

-me

Luiseach · 06-02-2003, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur
I'm stll chuckling over the other's description of Japan as a poster-child for heterogeneity.

I kind of agree with you here, actually...it threw me for a loop as well. :-D

Jat? Care to explain why you chose Japan as an example for cultural heterogeneity?

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