AdamWho

Nobody seems to actually be talking about Buddhism. Only about what they think or what they have heard about Buddhism.

Basic Ideas (Four Nobel Truths)
1. There is suffering
2. Desire (meaning excessive clinging) is the cause of all suffering.
3. To get rid of suffering, get rid of desire.
4. To help you get rid of desire, follow the 8 fold path, which is essentially a list of things a reasonably introspective person should be looking at on a regular basis.

All the ritual and mysticism was added later by people who wanted a less abstract religion. The addition of ritual and mysticism happens to all religions once they are popularized.

Doubt, self examination, personal responsibility, experimentation and the letting go of false belief is central to Buddhism, does this sound familiar to any atheists out there?

There are lots of good threads on Buddhism out there, so it is not necessary to muck through opinion.

Seraphim

"Again you assumptions amuses me. I rejected Christ because his doctrines were flawed and destructive to Mankind. I said nothing about Christ's teachings being too difficult to follow. Sep, Islam and Christianity are cults, not religions. At least nowhere in Gautama's life where he preached about loving your enemies and then commanded a mass genocide towards his Opponents."

My reply : I knew plenty of Christians (newly joined for been in it for years) who lived a peaceful life by knowing which to follow and which is outdated in the Bible. In the end, it is up to the person who is following it rather than Christ to lead the way.

Islam is another story since not following exactly what been said by its followers entitles him or her with the title "Munafik". In that context, I have to agree with you.

My assumptions of you is based on what you said and how you behaved in Cari.com.my. And my assumption of Christianity is based on their attitude toward others. I do agree that in the past 100 years, Christians did a LOT of things which they shouldn't be proud off, but then again, looking at them now (for the past 20 years), I see that they have change quite a bit and come to live in peace with the rest of the world.

"You claimed you read the Bible thrice. You understanding to me is pretty obvious that you never read it."

My reply : I show you plenty of Buddhist doctrine and all, did that reduce your hatred to others, especially the Christians (especially in Cari.com.my). Nope, you still attacking them for whatever reason you may have. I did read the Bible and understood its contents and further more, I have plenty of friends who follow it properly and treat me with due respect. This is what I will keep in my mind when I view Christianity as a religion, not your petty hatred.

"You did have your posts moderated before, I guess that made us equals, no? "

My reply : Locking a thread and getting your post moderated is not the same thing. Besides, as sign of protest, I don't bother with any reply I get from my moderated posts. Afterall, I don't need a secretary to write for me (Sarcasm).


By andy_d

"Come now Seraphim, Dharma is useful to all beings, not only those born in certain cultures or nations."

My reply : Unfortunately, that is true. Gautama didn't accept death and strive to continue living to teach others about Enlightnment.

"I'm concerned that your prejudice and animosity towards some of the Sangha could be damaging to yourself."

My reply : Don't worry about me. I have less emotion than most people have, petty emotions such as hatred couldn't effect me much. However, I do attend to get short tempered if someone missunderstood other doctrine ... have to work on that.

"There may be some truth in what you say, much of western culture is, for instance, concerned with the "quick fix". However, Buddhism is spreading incredibly fast in the west, and many eastern teachers who travel to the west say how impressed they are with the progress made by western students. What better antidote to some of the illnesses of western society than the gentle wisdom of Buddhism? "

My reply : Yes, I'm concerned about this "Quick Fix" that some Westerners are getting from Buddhism. They could bend and twist Buddhism to suit their need and in eyes of other religion, Buddhism could be as corrupted as any other religions which get missused.

In the East for example, Buddhism is taught to the mass but never forced upon them. Monks are ones who knows what is required of them to sacrifice to successfully undertake the path their chosen and they do it freely. Will the West follow this path or come out with their own ways?

Whether Buddhism is an antidote or poison is yet to be said or determined. What determine it will be the "teachers" who will bring Buddhism to the West and so far, great "wisemen" of Harvard or some University doesn't impress me much.

"Ask yourself, does your attitude actually help those in the west (or the east for that matter) to understand Dharma better, or is it likely to cause divisions? "

My reply : Division is better than missunderstanding of Dharma. At least through division, westerners can suit their needs according to Buddhism which won't require them to do too much sacrificing and at the same time, can learn in their own pace from East doctrine slowly. I consider sects such as Mahayana and Zen as division of the Main Buddhism from India and it did work out in the end.

As for my attitude, I don't mind being in hell if it means of getting others out of there. Maybe my attitude here will cause some to see Buddhism in a much deeper concern and don't simply take it to suit their needs.


By Bree

"Okay, so Westerners are evil.
What about Asians born in Asia, but living in the West? Does simply living in "these conditions" make learning impossible? "

My reply : Does living in the West supposed to make an Asian into a Western? I don't think so. What makes an Asian a Asian is their culture and knowledge about their background and their history, NOT the colour of their skin or where their were born.
IF an Asian was born in the West, then he or she have a full freedom to learn about him or herself from any source available and shape him or herself accordingly.

Learning is not impossible, the question is are you willing to push in the right direction or not?

Gurdur

Actually, this is simply not true.

In Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate, for 300 years Buddhism was compulsory, and foreign religions such as Christianity were banned on pain of death and torture.

In China, from around 1400 onwards, the Buddhists often made quite determined efforts to secure material and political power and privilege.

Thailand has had some similar history.
____________

Edited to add "Tokugawa".
Precision is everything !

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Seraphim

"Actually, this is simply not true.

In Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate, for 300 years Buddhism was compulsory, and foreign religions such as Christianity were banned on pain of death and torture."

My reply : That because of several reasons (most of it had nothing to do with religions) such as :

1. Foreigners were bring in newer weapons such as guns and the Shogun, fearing that its enemies could use this as opportunity to become stronger, banned Christianity.

2. Foreigners have little or no respect for Japan's culture or its people. Japan at the time of fuedal lords follows strict social order (like that of a Caste system in India) where the society is divided according to the work they are doing.

3. Buddhism made compulsory, true ... but other local beliefs such as Shinto survived without much prosection. Its Christianity which the Shogun didn't like much.

"In China, from around 1400 onwards, the Buddhists often made quite determined efforts to secure material and political power and privilege."

My reply : Mind show me some link? I'm not very familiar with China's history.

"Thailand has had some similar history."

My reply : Same here. I have no recollection of any Buddhist monks or sects out to conquer the kingdom for themselves. Links please.

Gurdur

ROFL ! The Buddha said it was OK to laugh.
My word, you agree, Seraphim, that your claim was simply not true.
You simply try excusing it afterwards.

Ruubbish.
The complete ban on Christianity happened after the Tokugawa Shogunate had completely wiped out the last enemy of any standing. It's nonsense to claim this had anything to do with guns, since Tokugawa was quite a happy customer of the guns till he had conquered Japan.

Also complete nonsense.
We're talking about Japanese Christians being tortured and killed, not foreigners.

And a completely racist and horrible discrimination against the Burakamin.

I wonder if I will go down in history as being the only person here to get Seraphim to agree that one of his claims was completely wrong ?

You would be better off with good history books rather than web-links on these, Seraphim; if you're really interested in this history, and not just trying some last-ditch defence, , then I'll be happy to provide you with the information, since despite the fact that I am not mummified, nor do I have plans for mummifying myself, Buddhism was always quite an interest of mine.

In fact, I've visited a hell of a lot of Buddhist temples in Japan, which was at least good for the calligraphy in my temple book; and I have an interest in the histories of China, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos and Kampuchea as well.

Note I am not praising myself; I'm simply expressing my interests, as well as giving you a gentle nudge about how you misjudge people.

Oh, and BTW, desite being blond and blue-eyed, I'm not a Westerner.

Seraphim

ROFL ! The Buddha said it was OK to laugh.
My word, you agree, Seraphim, that your claim was simply not true.
You simply try excusing it afterwards."

My reply : Simply not true doesn't means it is wrong either. To agree or disagree without proper explaining of why you did such is lying to yourself and others. I'm not sure (or care) whether you wish to be a liar, but I don't lie. The rest is up to you if you see it as an excuse or an explaination.

Ruubbish.
The complete ban on Christianity happened after the Tokugawa Shogunate had completely wiped out the last enemy of any standing. It's nonsense to claim this had anything to do with guns, since Tokugawa was quite a happy customer of the guns till he had conquered Japan.

My reply : Exactly true. Tokugawa knows how powerful the new weapons are and what role they played in his winning the wars against his enemies, the role which can be reversed IF this weapons were to be allowed to enter the country and get purchased by his enemies to use against the Shogun just as he used it against them earlier. Does that make sense?

I will forgive you if you don't know Strategy of War, after all, it is useless to assume that everyone read and understood the Book of Five Rings.

Also complete nonsense.
We're talking about Japanese Christians being tortured and killed, not foreigners.

My reply : Provide some links if possible.
Again, Japanese Christians could easily step outside the social order which could cause disarray thus caused punishment by the government. In Japan in fuedal times, whether you're a Buddhist, Christian or Shintoist, you must follow the social order or die. Nothing special about that.

And a completely racist and horrible discrimination against the Burakamin.

My reply : Yes, but that has nothing to do with Buddhism, it is simply the social order of things. In China, such people (who usually do things that is considered dirty by others such as handle cropse etc) is called Min People and in India, they are called Harijans.

I wonder if I will go down in history as being the only person here to get Seraphim to agree that one of his claims was completely wrong ?

My reply : You will probably go down in history (yours anyway) as the only one who over-reacts for simply statement made by his opponent to be such a great victory.

Agreeing to you doesn't mean that I'm wrong or you are right or that our conversation is over, it simply means that I'm agreeing to some of your statement. Try not to over-react, I'm usually don't like to laugh at people.

You would be better off with good history books rather than web-links on these, Seraphim; if you're really interested in this history, and not just trying some last-ditch defence, , then I'll be happy to provide you with the information, since despite the fact that I am not mummified, nor do I have plans for mummifying myself, Buddhism was always quite an interest of mine.

My reply : Please do provide links or some sort of proof of your claims, because I'm have not recollection of any Buddhist sects out to rule any kingdom.
As for whether you out to mummify yourself or not, that is no concern of mine. I'm only interested in your facts, not your well being.

In fact, I've visited a hell of a lot of Buddhist temples in Japan, which was at least good for the calligraphy in my temple book; and I have an interest in the histories of China, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos and Kampuchea as well.

My reply : Good for you.

Note I am not praising myself; I'm simply expressing my interests, as well as giving you a gentle nudge about how you misjudge people.

My reply : When your stage is ready, what will be your speech which you will recite? [No need to answer, just something I qoute from somewhere.]

Oh, and BTW, desite being blond and blue-eyed, I'm not a Westerner.

My reply : Since when does appearance decides whether a person is a Westerner or a Easterner? If you want to impress me, do so with your knowledge of the East, I have no interest in knowing how others look like.

Gurdur

LOL ! We're really not going to be friends, are we?

No. He had no more enemies to worry about. All opposing were dead.

You may forgive me or not as much as you like.
Since I seem to know Chinese history more than you do, I'm not going to be worried if you cast aspersions on me.

Go read a good history book on the early Tokugawa Shogunate. I don't put myself out for people who try insulting me, and you regard this all as so much of a contest of wills and nationalities, something I rather despise.

You seem to be getting desperate to excuse the xenophobia and sheer authoritarianism of tzhe Tokugawa Shogunate.

My point was aimed more there at your defence of the Tokugawa Shogunate, not at Buddhism.

It's OK, I can live with that.

You could have fooled me; half your posts deal in nothing else than an attempt to be as rude and hostile as possible.
You're trying an exaggeration here; go back and read what I wrote exactly.

Then go read some good history books.

Not true. On my first post here, you made a ridiculous attack on Westerners not being able to understand Buddhism, and you made a further ridiculous statement about self-mummification being a pointer to achieving Nirvana.
Wrong again.
I've pointed out the errors in your posts, and for the rest do the work yourself.

Go read some history, instead of propagandizing.

Corgan Sow

Seraphim, one last ditch. In the past, you told me that it is useless to study the Buddhist doctrines thru internet and such. Now, you seemed to contradicted yourself.

Give it up and get a life, boy.

Grizzly

Everyone - please refrain from personal attacks and insults. The discussion reads much better without these distractions.

Grizzly
Moderator

Seraphim

LOL ! We're really not going to be friends, are we?

My reply : Nope, maybe in your next lifetime ... assuming that I have one as well.

No. He had no more enemies to worry about. All opposing were dead.

My reply : Wrong. Why? Because Tokugawa needed to make sure that no new enemies rose to strike at him, and for that, he needs to make sure that no superior weapons reach anyone's hands.

Having power is not such a great deal, holding onto it IS. Any politicians would agree with that.

You may forgive me or not as much as you like.
Since I seem to know Chinese history more than you do, I'm not going to be worried if you cast aspersions on me.

My reply : we're talking about Japan ... not China. And I'm still waiting for the link to China's and Thailand's history where you stated that Buddhism did some awful things.

Go read a good history book on the early Tokugawa Shogunate. I don't put myself out for people who try insulting me, and you regard this all as so much of a contest of wills and nationalities, something I rather despise.

My reply : I will take that as sign that you are unable to prove your claims.

You seem to be getting desperate to excuse the xenophobia and sheer authoritarianism of tzhe Tokugawa Shogunate.

My reply : And you are running out of options when dealing with the matter. To summarise it, it is Tokugawa and the fuedal system of Japan which caused Christians to suffer (IF they ever did) NOT Buddhism.

My point was aimed more there at your defence of the Tokugawa Shogunate, not at Buddhism.

My reply : Buddhism never preach anywhere to go and kill those who doesn't follow it. In that context, it (Buddhism) doesn't need to be defended for something which it has nothing to do with.

You could have fooled me; half your posts deal in nothing else than an attempt to be as rude and hostile as possible.

My reply : Sarcasm is my second nature, it helps to show a non-violent approach to beating the crap out of your opponents when I feel like it.

You're trying an exaggeration here; go back and read what I wrote exactly.

My reply : I asked for some link to prove your claims, you have unable to provide it, thus I will take it that you cannot prove it either. I don't like asking over and over again so prove it if you can or don't boldy go around claiming things.

Not true. On my first post here, you made a ridiculous attack on Westerners not being able to understand Buddhism, and you made a further ridiculous statement about self-mummification being a pointer to achieving Nirvana.

My reply : 1. True - I said Westerners won't be able to practise Buddhism as good as Easterner because they want a "quick fix".
2. True - I said Mummifying oneself is sign of a person achieved Nirwana.
3. False - I have never said anything about caring for your well being.

We are talking about your personal status and health condition, not the West and its miserable attitude.

Wrong again.
I've pointed out the errors in your posts, and for the rest do the work yourself.

My reply : And WHO going to point out your errors? Don't ask me to ... I have other things to do.

Go read some history, instead of propagandizing.

My reply : There is nothing in the history books which says otherwise to what I have said. IF there is, show me a link or something.

By Corgan Sow

Seraphim, one last ditch. In the past, you told me that it is useless to study the Buddhist doctrines thru internet and such. Now, you seemed to contradicted yourself.

My reply : I remember saying it ... even so it was on another forum. Where may I ask is the contradiction?

For other readers, I will repeat what I have said to Corgan Sow in another forum - "You cannot study Buddhism through the Internet alone BECAUSE part of Buddhism is in its practise as well, thus you need to see someone who is practising it in order to understand it properly."