Autonemesis

There doesn't seem to be any point, other than the one we invent or adopt. God is an idea you choose to believe in. If that is the source of meaning for you, then you have chosen that meaning, same as anyone else, theist or not.

Tell me this: what meaning was lacking for God, that he should bother creating you? What is the point for God?

Red Expendable

I'm not sure the word passionate should be used to describe by non-belief in a non-existing entity. My non-belief is not based on passion or the lack thereof, but based on observation, logic and reason. No proof. No go. A THEISTS beliefs are based on faith, of course, oftentimes very passionate in nature.

As far as living life with no belief in god, and why would a pay so much attention to that the fact that I was doing so? --- I only it do it for intellectual stimulation. I find it quite fun and entertaining to debate such matters. Is that an acceptable answer?

A great majority of people on this planet DO believe in a god(s) -- it's kind of hard not to think about and debate, and STRUGGLE for a position I know to be correct.
Should I just keep silent and not say anyting? debate nothing. Keep my views to myself?

Besides -- what do you care that I care?

What about you, here you are, looking to debate.

No I don't think there is an afterlife. when you say 'higher purpose' - Higher than what? Why does there have to be a purpose to life?

I exist. And I want to be happy while I'm alive. I want to exist, and be happy - and NOT at the expense of other human beings.

And now that I think about it, I do serve a purpose after I die. Worm food! Worm food, plant food --fertilizer.

there ya go.

RedEx

EDITED FOR HUMOR CONTENT

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Red Expendable ]</p>

Odemus

How is your life adversely affected by 'believers'? What goals are you unable to pursue as a result of 'believers'?How does debating with 'believers' make a difference?


I believe digging a hole in the ice while naked to relieve myself is better.Who is more right?Why?

So then atheism will lead to a universally accepted ideal of what is best?

How do we create meaning? What about those things which meant something in the past but no longer do?Did they ever really have any meaning?How do you know that what you believe to hold meaning now will still hold meaning for your children?


Some people measure their happiness by the amount of misery they spread, how does their philosophy hold more or less meaning than yours?



No, not at all.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

Datheron

It seems that our friend Odemus is trying to feed his argument via the concept that no absolutities hold in atheism, therefore nothing can be reasoned. It is just another form of presuppositionism.

The fact is, meaning is only derived via our own definitions. Theists would love to have meaning come from royal reprimands above (i.e. God's commandments), but all evidence really points otherwise. Saying that the atheist is dillusional because he finds meaning in happiness where he has no reason to is a really weak argument.

Perhaps the way that Odemus is asking these questions shreds some light on how this entire shebang really works. That is, without some established, commonly agreed standard, there is very little that can be discussed. There really isn't any reasoning with the serial killer who believes that killing holds more meaning, if he does not accept that he does not have the right to kill via our society's laws and common sense. There really isn't any standard of "good" or "bad" without some mutual agreement on what these terms mean (is postmodern art "better" than Renassisance paintings?). Same age-old argument works on morality and the "meaning of life".

Having God be the "magic bullet" whose words theists derive meaning only places the burden of meaning upon a deity; it just happens that by definition he gives meaning, which is only a circular argument anyway.

David Gould

Odemus,

Define 'meaning'.

According to some branches of Christianity, I will end up in hell for eternity.

What ultimate meaning has my existence if that is the case?

I suspect that you believe (or hope, at least) that you will end up in heaven for all eternity.

What ultimate meaning has your existence if that is the case?

Assertions that a God and an afterlife somehow supply 'meaning' are all very well but I would like to see your reasoning on this one.


I suspect that 'meaning' in this sense is actually meaningless. It is simply a word that Christians use when they really mean 'better'.

In other words, 'life has meaning if there is a God' actually means 'life is better if there is a God'.

In fact, I would go so far as to say - from the number of times that I have seen Christians insisting that atheists must have terrible, unfillfulled lives - that the true meaning of the phrase when used by Christians ("life has meaning if there is a God") is:

"life is more bearable if there is a God because I know that death is not the end, removing that fear from my mind, and that the afterlife in Heaven will be infinitely better than this one, thus enabling me to put up with any bad stuff in this one."

But I may be wrong here, so please give me your definition.


I was a Christian for 12 years (June last year was my first atheist month). I have noticed no reduction in my happiness - in fact, I am a lot happier as an atheist in some ways. While I no longer have the hope of ending up in heaven, I no longer have the fear of others ending up in hell, for example.

Christopher Lord

I am intrigued that theists need to think that atheists have some grand POINT to believe in.

For example, I am quite confident that there is no such thing as a POINT. The fact that we have a mind is just a big (one of many?) mistake in the history of the universe. We and our mind/brain pair are just one possible survival strategy for a bunch of amino acids which happen to be able to change over time in packets called genes transmitted via watersacks called cells.

If there was a visible POINT, I would probably be a thiest or deist simply because a POINT implies a reason. and reason implies intelligence.

Therefore, I think that theists are determinied to find the POINT atheists are "supposed" to have and hold it up and say "SEE, you believe in a POINT to it all, and so you also believe in a REASON for it all, and so you are also saying that there is an INTELLIGENCE behind it all."

When they get the standard "No point! but we still enjoy life, since it would be stupid not too" response, they fall back on "But there is no POINT to enjoyment according to atheisim, come on, tell me what your POINT is, please?"

So discussions on the POINT always end up the same.

Odemus

We share a common belief.

This board publicly establishes the presentation of empirical evidence to substantiate supernatural truth.You are aware that no one can provide that, which brings me back to the question.What's the point?

How does the love of life hold meaning?


Really? If both of our lives hold no meaning at the end, yet I decide my life is pointless now, and end it now, will your life continue to have meaning until you die while the meaning of my life ceases with my breath?Once we are both in the grave what will meaning mean?

I'm happy with my life, while I look forward to eternity, I am by no means impatient.It is my pleasure to love my wife and daughter, and to lead my family in the pursuit of holiness.When I reach the appointed time to die, I will be ready.Apart from that I have no real desire to hasten my death.Why would you assume life to be so bad that I would?

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

Odemus

Every system of belief is based on presuppositionism.

What does that mean? How is that any different than saying seals define meaning by eating fish?


Well I am saying that is a strong argument, and if there is no God, you won't disagree with me after you're dead now will you?


Hmm, perhaps.I think it's time to put on your best clinically detatched expression and have a go at my dissecting my little mind.

No, I am saying that without a standard by which all men are accountable, the universe is in fact meaningless.Yes, completely and utterly devoid of purpose in every sense of the word.Planet earth could go sailing into the heart of the sun and it would mean absolutely nothing.

What does it matter that a serial killer prefers to ignore the accepted laws of society?

Believing that your life holds value is a dead end argument if God doesn't exist.

Vorkosigan

Why do you care so passionately about your disbelief?

The World Trade Center
Northern Ireland
Communism vs Religion
The attacks on democracy in the US by Christian Fundamentalism
Muslims vs. Christians in Indonesia
Muslims vs. Hindus in India
Christians vs. Hindus in Assam
Missionaries vs. local religions
Evangelicals vs. Catholics in Latin America
Orthodox vs. everybody else in Russia
Jews vs. Muslims in the Middle East

and so on. Must I make a complete list? The older I get, the more I experience belief as a great evil, although capable of good on a local scale.

Vorkosigan

Odemus

Main Entry: mean·ing
Pronunciation: 'mE-ni[ng]
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a : the thing one intends to convey especially by language : PURPORT b : the thing that is conveyed especially by language : IMPORT
2 : something meant or intended : AIM &lt;a mischievous meaning was apparent&gt;
3 : significant quality; especially : implication of a hidden or special significance &lt;a glance full of meaning&gt;
4 a : the logical connotation of a word or phrase b : the logical denotation or extension of a word or phrase
- meaning adjective
- mean·ing·ly /-ni[ng]-lE/ adverb

To glorify God.


To glorify God.

No, I mean meaning, although I do look forward to better.


I don't know anything about your life therefore I am unable to gauge your level of happiness.

Not quite, your defintion is a consequence of my faith because I believe in God as an absolute truth in the same sense that you believe you're existence is an absolute truth.

I am saddened to hear that but if your interpretation of my faith is in any way reflective of the kind of faith you held I'm not surprised you are now an athiest.