Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bocajeff · 10-29-2002, 02:59 PM

I'm just going to play Devil's Advocate here for a second.

Let's assume these "miracles" did in fact happen.

Now, how is that any indication of God? It's possible the miracles could simply be the work of of some superpowerful invisible alien who wants you to think he/she/it is God.

How would one know the difference?

If the miracles are true (which under scrutiny probably aren't), then all they indicate is that there is something at work that we can't explain. Yet. To chalk it up to God is bad logic, when, conceivably, it could be any number of things.

MortalWombat · 10-29-2002, 03:45 PM

Does this sound like a Christian troll pretending to be an agnostic to anyone else, or does my bullshit detector need recalibrating?

Jobar · 10-29-2002, 03:51 PM

Hello Gamblet, and welcome to II.

My advice to you is to go to a library where you can read back issues of Skeptical Inquirer magazine. There has never been a scientifically documented miracle. Never. Oh, there have been spontaneous remissions of cancers, and people who lived through injuries which kill most who suffer that sort of injury, and escapes from dangerous situations so amazing that they are called 'miraculous'. To balance these, there are deaths from cancers and other diseases from which 99% of sufferers are easily cured, deaths from injuries so seemingly minor as to be ignored until the victim falls over, and deaths caused by accidents so incredibly unlikely that the chances against dying that way are billions to one.

Religious people seize on these improbable-but-natural occurances and call them miraculous.

Jerry Love, it doesn't surprise me that breath control can help your health and peace of mind. It allows you to control your heart rate, reduce blood pressure & stress- any sort of meditation or biofeedback is good for the body. However, this is scarcely miraculous.

This is not properly a topic for EoG- I'm putting it in the Misc. Religion forum.

Jerry Love · 10-29-2002, 04:01 PM

Quote:

What's more, scientists like to have multiple lines of evidence that converge to support a particular hypothesis. We'd want to demonstrate that prayer is / is not necessary and sufficient for a whole slew of things. Then, assuming that worked, establish what types of prayer (e.g. to what god) worked better than others... every question answered raises more questions.

Agreed. Along those lines...

<a href="http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/gma/drjohnson/gma011004prayer_dr_tim.html" target="_blank">http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/gma/drjohnson/gma011004prayer_dr_tim.html</a>
<a href="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_010813_remotehealing_feature.html" target="_blank">http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_010813_remotehealing_feature.html</a>

There appear to be some statistics to back up the claim. At present, they do nothing to support the conclusions (God); in fact, the apparent fact that religion is not signifigant in determining results would tend to remove most of the religions from being valid answers.

Quote:

Jerry Love, it doesn't surprise me that breath control can help your health and peace of mind. It allows you to control your heart rate, reduce blood pressure & stress- any sort of meditation or biofeedback is good for the body. However, this is scarcely miraculous.

I'm not referring simply to the effect of deep breathing on one's self. Perhaps the fact that I offered a literal translation of "qi" was misleading. I referring to Eastern (Chinese) energy arts (qigong). For reference, accupuncture draws from the same material. Qigong people don't use needles.

The fact that there is any ability to sense r perform any action across space (IOW without countact) without equipment is what set-off my alarms... and exactly what I learned to do.

Arrowman · 10-29-2002, 11:15 PM

Hello, Gamblet.

I think most of the key points have been covered by others - my 2 cents:

I know it's difficult to understand how such sincerely stated beliefs as you have seen on the Christian message boards, could be anything other than credible (at least in part). Without wishing to sound patronising - at the age of 15, you probably haven't seen enough human stupidity yet! There are many reasons why people make up, misinterpret, selectively recall - even lie without realising it.

People can say and believe some incredibly whacky things. I have had friends, on at least two occasions, recite urban legends to me as though they were involved, or had first-hand experience. I am at a loss to understand how this can be. I just accept it as one of life's perverse amusements!

Let's forget about gods and religion for a moment. Consider the following claims:
A. John Edward can communicate with dead people.
B. Some people can locate underground water using a piece of wood.
C. Some people can predict the future.
D. A woman's son was cured of a skeletal disorder after a prayer session in a church, and there is no possible natural explanation for this.

And there are people, both online and in real life, who will provide you with very firm and specific (and superficially credible) testimonies for every one of these.

I venture so suggest that you would disbelieve A, B and C - yet, you are expressing doubts about D. Ask yourself why. Ask yourself why you are applying a different standard to D. Try to justify that different standard. I'd like to hear what you come up with.

Gamblet · 10-30-2002, 02:00 AM

Firstly, thankyou to everyone for their replies. I've enjoyed reading them. Secondly, I'm not a 'Christian troll pretending to be an Agnostic'

I'm just tryng to decide which side the evidence points to. I'll also point out that I've been an atheist for the last 15 years.

Arrowman, the reason I have doubts about D being false is that the person telling me about it seemed credible. I had no reason to feel that she was lying. And the reason I thought God was the only explanation (if the 'miracles' are true) is that they were as a reult of praying.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Gamblet ]

Queen of Swords · 10-30-2002, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Gamblet:
And the reason I thought God was the only explanation (if the 'miracles' are true) is that they were as a reult of praying.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Besides, if prayer could really get miracles to occur, I have another story - my dad's cousin's baby who was born prematurely. They prayed over her for two weeks, and at the end of that time, there was a funeral. No miracle occurred. Why would a loving God help one child but not another?

MortalWombat · 10-30-2002, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gamblet:
Firstly, thankyou to everyone for their replies. I've enjoyed reading them. Secondly, I'm not a 'Christian troll pretending to be an Agnostic'

I'm just tryng to decide which side the evidence points to. I'll also point out that I've been an atheist for the last 15 years.

I'm confused. Are you an atheist or an agnostic? Your profile says:

Quote:

Basic Beliefs: Agnostic, attempting to make decision on whether God exists or not.

frostymama · 10-30-2002, 05:50 AM

Miracles are often exagerated. My parents tell everyone that my sister was "raised from the dead". I have heard that story repeated more times than I can count and countless people belive it. They neglect to give any credit to the EMTs in the back of the ambulance that were doing CPR (Gee, think that might have something to do with it?)

I have also faked a leg straightening miracle. If you ask my parents they will tell you that I was miraclulously healed in church. They wholeheartedly believe it. Anyone with eyes can tell that I still can't walk normally, but of course that doesn't seem to matter.

Godless Dave · 10-30-2002, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gamblet:
For the past few weeks I have been searching for the truth about religion (mainly
Christianity) and where life came from. I've tried to keep an open mind, as if I were looking at everything for the first time. After taking into account evidence for both sides,

What do you mean both sides? There are thousands of religions, and almost all of them claim miracles have occured at some time in our history. Why are you narrowing your inquiry to just Christianity and atheism?

10-30-2002, 02:00 AM	#16
Gamblet New Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 2	Firstly, thankyou to everyone for their replies. I've enjoyed reading them. Secondly, I'm not a 'Christian troll pretending to be an Agnostic' I'm just tryng to decide which side the evidence points to. I'll also point out that I've been an atheist for the last 15 years. Arrowman, the reason I have doubts about D being false is that the person telling me about it seemed credible. I had no reason to feel that she was lying. And the reason I thought God was the only explanation (if the 'miracles' are true) is that they were as a reult of praying. [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Gamblet ]</p>

10-30-2002, 02:36 AM	#17
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Gamblet: <strong>And the reason I thought God was the only explanation (if the 'miracles' are true) is that they were as a reult of praying.</strong> Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Besides, if prayer could really get miracles to occur, I have another story - my dad's cousin's baby who was born prematurely. They prayed over her for two weeks, and at the end of that time, there was a funeral. No miracle occurred. Why would a loving God help one child but not another?

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10-29-2002, 02:59 PM	#11
bocajeff Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: HelL.A. Posts: 1,157	I'm just going to play Devil's Advocate here for a second. Let's assume these "miracles" did in fact happen. Now, how is that any indication of God? It's possible the miracles could simply be the work of of some superpowerful invisible alien who wants you to think he/she/it is God. How would one know the difference? If the miracles are true (which under scrutiny probably aren't), then all they indicate is that there is something at work that we can't explain. Yet. To chalk it up to God is bad logic, when, conceivably, it could be any number of things.

10-29-2002, 03:45 PM	#12
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	Does this sound like a Christian troll pretending to be an agnostic to anyone else, or does my bullshit detector need recalibrating?

10-29-2002, 03:51 PM	#13
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Hello Gamblet, and welcome to II. My advice to you is to go to a library where you can read back issues of Skeptical Inquirer magazine. There has never been a scientifically documented miracle. Never. Oh, there have been spontaneous remissions of cancers, and people who lived through injuries which kill most who suffer that sort of injury, and escapes from dangerous situations so amazing that they are called 'miraculous'. To balance these, there are deaths from cancers and other diseases from which 99% of sufferers are easily cured, deaths from injuries so seemingly minor as to be ignored until the victim falls over, and deaths caused by accidents so incredibly unlikely that the chances against dying that way are billions to one. Religious people seize on these improbable-but-natural occurances and call them miraculous. Jerry Love, it doesn't surprise me that breath control can help your health and peace of mind. It allows you to control your heart rate, reduce blood pressure & stress- any sort of meditation or biofeedback is good for the body. However, this is scarcely miraculous. This is not properly a topic for EoG- I'm putting it in the Misc. Religion forum.

10-29-2002, 11:15 PM	#15
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Hello, Gamblet. I think most of the key points have been covered by others - my 2 cents: I know it's difficult to understand how such sincerely stated beliefs as you have seen on the Christian message boards, could be anything other than credible (at least in part). Without wishing to sound patronising - at the age of 15, you probably haven't seen enough human stupidity yet! There are many reasons why people make up, misinterpret, selectively recall - even lie without realising it. People can say and believe some incredibly whacky things. I have had friends, on at least two occasions, recite urban legends to me as though they were involved, or had first-hand experience. I am at a loss to understand how this can be. I just accept it as one of life's perverse amusements! Let's forget about gods and religion for a moment. Consider the following claims: A. John Edward can communicate with dead people. B. Some people can locate underground water using a piece of wood. C. Some people can predict the future. D. A woman's son was cured of a skeletal disorder after a prayer session in a church, and there is no possible natural explanation for this. And there are people, both online and in real life, who will provide you with very firm and specific (and superficially credible) testimonies for every one of these. I venture so suggest that you would disbelieve A, B and C - yet, you are expressing doubts about D. Ask yourself why. Ask yourself why you are applying a different standard to D. Try to justify that different standard. I'd like to hear what you come up with.

10-30-2002, 05:50 AM	#19
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	Miracles are often exagerated. My parents tell everyone that my sister was "raised from the dead". I have heard that story repeated more times than I can count and countless people belive it. They neglect to give any credit to the EMTs in the back of the ambulance that were doing CPR (Gee, think that might have something to do with it?) I have also faked a leg straightening miracle. If you ask my parents they will tell you that I was miraclulously healed in church. They wholeheartedly believe it. Anyone with eyes can tell that I still can't walk normally, but of course that doesn't seem to matter.

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