Rusting Car Bumper

It seems you are incorrect.

Science *is* an intimate relationship with nature. That's the point. It's not "mere formulas and observations" as was ignorantly claimed.

It's not being "bored." Its actually showing contempt.

To quote Feynman again:

This description which Feynman gives as well as the previous one that was glazed over is highly descriptive of a "spiritual" or "religious" type of experience that is had through understanding nature through science.

The respondent said "I'm not blind to science." Indeed she is. If she wasn't then she would have appreciation for beautiful aesthetic experience that cannot be had any other way.

These sorts of experiences of people who choose to take a look at the beauty of things from a scientific perspective have an almost universal agreement in that they almost all describe a kind of Kantian experience of the sublime which is unavailable through the scientific model.

There is nothing wrong except the contempt. Its no better that how other theists find contempt for other ways of seeing things.

I think it was disregarded and insincerely so. If that's insulting to somebody than so be it. Saying that "its just a bunch of molecules" is no better than saying paganism is just a bunch of people running around naked in the woods.

When atheists tell me that the bible is a horrible book, I tell them that much of it is great literature when treated as such. They are having the same kind of contempt for that long tradition that others seem to have of science. This is true for detractors of many traditions and I have no problem calling them out when I see them.

The only thing I have contempt for is contempt.

DC

-RRH-

Science is fine, as long as it happens to other people.

We spend a lot of time surrounded by human artifacts. There is something to be said for the occasional connection with that which has not been touched (much) by human hands.

But I can get my Jungian archetypes from the stories of Conan the Cimmerian, and I'm not expected to believe in Crom.

M87

Hey HD and all,

Wow - interesting topic!

Thanks for posting the "Why Wiccans Suck" link, Heathen Dawn . I was giggling to myself as I scanned it - lots of those comment precisely describe my attitude, back when I first left xtianity, and considered myself to be a Wiccan. I was definitely the "fluff bunny" type, drunk with the sense of rebellion and holier-than-those-xtians that I was filled with .

Anyway, I really enjoyed the rituals of Wicca that I practiced before eventually becoming an atheist. But I never thought about an atheist liking them for their own sake, without believing they have any impact on reality. I was about to ask what you liked about them, and why you feel you "need ritual" in your life, but it seems that you agree whole-heartedly with brighid's statements:

"It is something to look forward to and for us secular pagans it is a creative outlet for meditation and visualization that fits ours personalities and that I do not find outlet for in other arenas. I personally need the structure of a group for meditation and visualization..."

I think I can understand wanting that, and wanting increased bonding with your co-participants in ritual, and wanting to feel more in tune with nature's cycles. I'm curious though - what is it about sharing the rituals that generates those feelings of closer bonds, and that in-tune-ness with nature? I know that's a bit of a tangent from your original topic - I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, so no worries if you don't want to go into that here.

I also wanted to toss in my two bits about science. I can understand that you find the dry numbers boring. But I thought I'd share my perspective. I get an enormous kick out of knowing some scientific facts - not just for the sake of the numbers themselves, but because it makes me look at the world differently, when I try to wrap my mind around them and really understand what they mean. Here's an example:

In a "non-scientific" way, I revel in the feel of sunlight on my face. I love watching the intricate dance of shadows across the ground when the wind blows tree branches around. I feel an uprush of pure elation when I see a particularly colorful sunset or sunrise. But I also love knowing that the sun is a gigantic ball of insanely hot hydrogen gas, so huge that the entire Earth would vanish into it with nary a ripple. That it is over 93 million miles away from us. That the light reaching my face took 8 minutes traveling through that distance to reach me. Things like that open my eyes to how vast and incredibly complex this universe is. That understanding makes me feel closer to it... and gives me that same delicious shiver of awe that I feel when looking at a particularly beautiful sunrise. *shrug* Maybe that's just an illustration of what a hopeless nerd I am *laugh*. But for me, that's what makes science wonderful.

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: M87 ]</p>

Perchance

That was beautiful, M87. Thanks for sharing.

I feel somewhat the same way about science. I am not, never have been, and never will be a scientist; I simply can't handle the math involved, and reading the literature is boring to me unless I have some sort of personal involvement, such as resarching something for its own sake. I've been an English person as long as I can remember, and fantasy-oriented.

But there are certain scientific facts that get into my head and stay there and are so fascinating that I'm glad to know them. Amber smells like cream, glass is a liquid, the first strike of lightning is often from the ground to the sky... Wow.

It's putting them into systems that I have trouble with. With poetry I'm intensely interested in the rhythm and the rhyme modes as well as what the poetry is saying (and I understand that bores some people to death ). With science I'm not really interested in the surrounding systems of how they got there. There's a beauty in the scientific method, but not, for me, all those formulas.

At the same time, I don't think I could be a "secular pagan." I like sunsets and everything, but the idea of incorporating rituals into my life just leaves me cold. It does nothing for me. Maybe it would be different if I were in a group, but I don't think so.

Unless looking at the sunset is a ritual .

-Perchance.

Heathen Dawn

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Seeing that nature is a non-human, impersonal entity, I don't quite perceive how you can have a relationship with it. You can be with nature, or learn about nature, but you can't talk to the trees and expect them to talk back.

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Give me a break. Science doesn't make me feel good, it makes me feel depressed. Science is all about observation of the harsh, indifferent truth, and nothing to do with having a good feeling. (It's "he", by the way).

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Science has robbed me of happiness and personal inner peace. How can I not feel contempt towards it?! The reason I crave religion is I want to restore that good feeling which science took away from me. Science tells me I'm just a disposable vessel for my genes, and that I'm doomed to oblivion by death. Religion, on the other hand, fills me with a far-reaching goal for life.

For me, when I have to make the choice between my emotions and the factual evidence, then my emotions definitely trump factual evidence. When I was a fundy theist I so wanted to be of the faith that I autosuggested myself into believing its tenets. I know the case for life after death, for instance, is tenuous, but because I'm so afraid of the finality of death, I'll do everything to convince myself there is life after death, for my own mental well-being.

The path of being intellectually honest is not necessarily the most mentally healthy one. Sometimes it is best to avoid being hurt by the harsh truth. That's what religion is for.

Veil of Fire

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: Veil of Fire ]</p>

Veil of Fire

Umm... *raises hand* I.. um... I do.

Aquila ka Hecate

Thank you, Veil of Fire, for that lovely piece of verse.

I'm agoodastronomer as well as a passable physicist, who practices as a computer scientist.

But I'm also a pagan, and I don't feel any contradiction in the way I'm practising it.

Heathen Dawn, while I myself can't quite understand this feeling of enmity between yourself and science, I respect your right to feel that way.

I guess it's similar to the way I feel about the classics in literature!

Each to hir own, as was pointed out earlier, I guess, and this is the beauty of the pagan option-a space for those of us who feel the need for ritual,emotion and dare I say the word spirituality.

Try to overlook if you can that neo paganism is awash with loonies and irrationals, and work out your own path.
That's all anyone can do in any case, in any aspect of our lives.

(This coming from one of the most rabid, intolerant people on this planet)

Heathen Dawn

Veil of Fire - thanks very much for a piece that speaks out my mind!

Most important is to listen to one's heart, to one's emotions. Without emotions we are nothing. Emotions are the most important thing in the world. Which religion do I choose? That which appeals to my emotions.

brighid

Primal,

WOW - anti-science... now THAT is a stretch! I suppose that all the things I said about my respect and support of science just doesn't cut it... whatever

-----------------------------------------

All of our perspectives are subjective, plain and simple. I love and marvel at the wonders of science, however I don't have a particularly scientific mind ... such as Oolon, or others in S&S who are passionate about science. My eye balls cross when I read some of those threads. Lets say my mind is just not wired that way. But give me language, art, poetry, music and that I understand - that I have passion for. Just because science and I aren't passionate bed fellows does not mean anything other then we aren't passionate bed fellows. My confidence, admiration and wonderment for science and it's discoveries are in no way diminished by my greater passion for things non of science. So please do not label me (or Heathen Dawn - who happens to be a HE) as anti-scientific. NOTHING could be farther from the truth.

Furthermore, just because one cannot understand how another can be secular and pagan does not in fact negate the ability for one to be secular and pagan. Just as many are secular and Jewish, or secular and Hindu. It simply means you can't understand it, in part because paganism can't be defined as Christianity can (and that is even a difficult proposition.) You simply lack the relevant experience to fully understand that way - just as a man can never fully understand what it is like to carry a child inside of himself, or to give birth. Or what it is like to be gay when one is straight.

To answer another posters question about how Circle creates that feeling .... I am not sure if I can fully describe that situation. Perhaps it is because within this particular group of women I can express myself fully, whereas even here there is an element of my persona that is left out of the arena. These women were my close friends, those whom I admired long before ever being allowed into that inner circle. And perhaps my situation is unique in that way and I didn't simply find a group the way others find a Church in their neighborhood.

There really is no other place that I have access to that actually celebrates femininity in a way that is not sexually patronizing, or anti-male (as some feminist groups are.) There is no place where I can share my creative energy in a way that benefits the lives of others, as it takes place in Circle. Just as in any meditative practice there is a physical and mental component that is activated, some refer to it as the "religious" experience. I don't see that way, because for me it's not. It is a chemical response to a physical/mental activity (and one that has been duplicated in labs )

I find that experience difficult to duplicate, even though vigorous exercise comes close. I am fully aware that my Catholic upbringing and it's ritualistic nature influences my desire to have that in my life. It is a way to focus my mental energy on a goal I wish to accomplish.

I also enjoy the emotional intimacy within our group. Perhaps it's a female thing and the need to commune with other women, other mothers ... The women of my group know me in ways only my husband does (except of course sexually). They know my darkest secrets, my pains, horrors, joys, goals and all else in between. There is a unique strength that doesn't exist inside other circles because of the nature of Circle. In a sense it is a "sacred" trust. What is discussed in Circle, stays in Circle and in all the years I have participated that trust has NEVER been broken. I cannot say that for other friends or even family.

It is a system of emotional support. They are the women I turn to in time of crisis. They understand me. They share common goals, likes, dislikes (although three are conservative Republicans - now try and figure that one out - secular, pagan, conservative, Republican....)

Nature ... I wouldn't say I commune with it per say, but I feel a sense of peace and amazement when I am in nature. We don't dance naked by the light of the moon - much to the disappointment of our husbands. I feel recharged and rejuvenated when I am able to escape to the woods, etc. My Native American heritage comes through in those moments. My Uncle who is half Cherokee instilled that reverence in me long ago.

Circle is about a peaceful quietness, and inner quietness ... it is also about the awakening of your inner strength, focusing your efforts in refining, rebuilding and nurturing ... its about celebration ... and when you are in a safe place, with people you know and trust, who support and truly want your health, happiness and success, who accept you for who and what you are without question, without condemnation and without reservation (even when your views sometimes differ immensely) ... it is a powerful place to be.

Of course this can be achieved in any sort of group. This works for me. It allows the poet, the bard, the feminine warrior, mother, maiden, temptress, (and many others) to have a safe and respected place to simply be. I can't get that other places and it is something I have come to need. It's a place to regain the balance that gets out of whack with work, school, family, etc.

It works and I know I am a better person for participating in this group. But I have no delusions about the Gods. I have no disrespect for science (and if you knew about my life outside of this very small glimpse of it you would laugh hysterically at the idea that I am "anti-science.") I know that nothing outside of myself is acting upon my being, my future, or through "spells" on others in any supernatural sense. All that I do in ritual, festival and within Circle is about what exists within myself - PERIOD.

If some cannot fathom, or understand that ... I'm okay with that. However, that lack of understanding does not change reality.

Brighid