Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Celsus · 01-28-2003, 05:42 PM

Quote:

What makes a free thinker is not his beliefs, but the way in which he holds them. If he holds them because his elders told him, they were true when he was young, or if he holds them because if he did not, he would be unhappy, his thought is not free; but if he holds them because, after careful thought, he finds balance in their favour, then his thought is free, however odd his conclusions may seem.
--Bertrand Russell

I wonder, if we substitute "elders" with "nuns", what would we get?

Joel

beyelzu · 01-28-2003, 06:07 PM

Celsus,

Great Bertrand Russell quote. Damn, I love that man. Strictly in a heterosexual way of course, the way one loves football players, war heroes, and people that werent allowed to teach at the City College of New York cuz they were outspoken atheists.:notworthy :notworthy

Amie · 01-28-2003, 06:15 PM

I tend to think a freethinker as someone who rejects religious dogma or someone is not a believer. Neither apply to me.

I am not a freethinker.

I believe in God and thus doing so some of my opinions and views stem from my God belief. I dont think its an insult to myself to say I am not a freethinker, I'm just not. I have no problem with that. If someone tells me I am not a freethinker, I would agree due to the technical definition. I have religion in my life, I believe in God. That does not mean I dont use my brain and that does not make me less intelligent it just does not make me a "freethinker" by freethinking standards. Lets face it I am atheistically challeneged

obla di obla da life goes on...

David M. Payne · 01-28-2003, 06:34 PM

Well Gemma, here is a common definition for freethinker from the American Heritage dictionary:
free�think�er n. One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation. --free�think�ing adj. & n.

From The World Book Dictionary we get:
freethinker, noun.a person who forms his own opinions, especially on religion, independently of authority or tradition. Historically the term is applied to a group of deists of the early 1700's and it still has the sense of agnostic, skeptic, or even atheist.

And from MS Encarta we have:
Freethinker, person who relies on reason to reach conclusions, especially in matters of religion. In 17th- and 18th-century England and France, the term freethinkers referred to deists-those who rejected the concept of divine revelation and the authority of a church. The freethinkers formed societies and wrote books that advocated the establishment of a religion based on the free use of reason and on the laws of nature. Irish philosopher John Toland in England and philosophers Voltaire and Jean Jacques Rousseau in France were leading freethinkers of the time. Present-day freethinker organizations include the American Rationalist Association, the Freethinkers of America, and the International Order for Ethics and Culture.

So you can't be a freethinker in any traditional meaning we know of, unless you call yourself a deist.

Perhaps you can find a catholic dictionary that gives you the definition you seek. But you will be unable to find a non-biased dictionary, encyclopedia or other source of reference that will do so, will you? And yes, as usual, you will not answer this post.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

notMichaelJackson · 01-28-2003, 07:27 PM

Can one be a freethinker (free thinker) and a Christian at the same time?

David M. Payne · 01-28-2003, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notMichaelJackson
Can one be a freethinker (free thinker) and a Christian at the same time?

See above NMJ

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

01-28-2003, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beyelzu
Celsus,

Great Bertrand Russell quote. Damn, I love that man.

He was a good historian wasn't he? I read some of his "History of Philosophy," I think it was called.

Infinity Lover · 01-28-2003, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
Lets face it I am atheistically challeneged

Hey lieverd, maybe that'll grant you permission to park in those handicaped zones?

Wyz_sub10 · 01-29-2003, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by notMichaelJackson
Can one be a freethinker (free thinker) and a Christian at the same time?

If a person starts with a tabla rasa, so to speak, and ends up concluding that belief in the Chrisitan god is what is more sensible/appealling, then they could possibly be described as a freethinking.

The major problem with this is that somewhere during that process, in order to accpet Christianity, they will have to accept certain dogma/beliefs/myths on the basis of tradition alone. This runs counter to the definition.

My feeling is, no you couldn't be both because if you take the "dogma/belief according to tradition" out of the picture, there is no support for Christianity.

BibleBelted · 01-29-2003, 08:45 AM

Quote:

I will commence with a definition. Freethought may be defined as the rejection of authority in matters of opinion. It sets the persuasion of fact against the coercion of force. A Freethinker is one who forms his own opinions on the facts as he sees them. Right or wrong, his opinions are his own. He is a voice, not an echo.

Historically, freethought has become identified with the rejection of religious doctrines. This is because it is from the side of religion that the impulse to intolerance has come. Human society is born in the shadow of religious fear, and in that stage the suppression of heresy is a sacred social duty. Then comes the rise of a priesthood, and the independent thinker is met with punishment in this world and the threat of eternal damnation hereafter. Even to-day it is from the religious side that the greatest danger to freedom of thought comes. Religion is the last thing man will civilise.

Chapman Cohen - The Meaning and Value of Freethought

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01-28-2003, 06:07 PM	#32
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	Celsus, Great Bertrand Russell quote. Damn, I love that man. Strictly in a heterosexual way of course, the way one loves football players, war heroes, and people that werent allowed to teach at the City College of New York cuz they were outspoken atheists.:notworthy :notworthy

01-28-2003, 06:15 PM	#33
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	I tend to think a freethinker as someone who rejects religious dogma or someone is not a believer. Neither apply to me. I am not a freethinker. I believe in God and thus doing so some of my opinions and views stem from my God belief. I dont think its an insult to myself to say I am not a freethinker, I'm just not. I have no problem with that. If someone tells me I am not a freethinker, I would agree due to the technical definition. I have religion in my life, I believe in God. That does not mean I dont use my brain and that does not make me less intelligent it just does not make me a "freethinker" by freethinking standards. Lets face it I am atheistically challeneged obla di obla da life goes on...

01-28-2003, 06:34 PM	#34
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Well Gemma, here is a common definition for freethinker from the American Heritage dictionary: free�think�er n. One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation. --free�think�ing adj. & n. From The World Book Dictionary we get: freethinker, noun.a person who forms his own opinions, especially on religion, independently of authority or tradition. Historically the term is applied to a group of deists of the early 1700's and it still has the sense of agnostic, skeptic, or even atheist. And from MS Encarta we have: Freethinker, person who relies on reason to reach conclusions, especially in matters of religion. In 17th- and 18th-century England and France, the term freethinkers referred to deists-those who rejected the concept of divine revelation and the authority of a church. The freethinkers formed societies and wrote books that advocated the establishment of a religion based on the free use of reason and on the laws of nature. Irish philosopher John Toland in England and philosophers Voltaire and Jean Jacques Rousseau in France were leading freethinkers of the time. Present-day freethinker organizations include the American Rationalist Association, the Freethinkers of America, and the International Order for Ethics and Culture. So you can't be a freethinker in any traditional meaning we know of, unless you call yourself a deist. Perhaps you can find a catholic dictionary that gives you the definition you seek. But you will be unable to find a non-biased dictionary, encyclopedia or other source of reference that will do so, will you? And yes, as usual, you will not answer this post. David "God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

01-28-2003, 07:27 PM	#35
notMichaelJackson Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: IL Posts: 552	Can one be a freethinker (free thinker) and a Christian at the same time?

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