RED DAVE

From EstherRose:

What a smug reply! You still haven't answered me. What about my greatgrandmother? Under what circumstances could she ever have adopted your religion? All she ever knew about xtians is that they were the people who were murdering our people. Would you embrace a religion like that? And for that, she went to hell, after being killed by a xtian?

Why don't you just confess your complacence and sadism? Enjoy them without guilt.

First of all, that's a low, dirty shot, worthy of a xtian. Second of all, as an active socialist and member of the anti-war movement, I am trying, personally, to do things to ease the suffering of people involved in these atrocities, mostly caused by xtians. Nice try at wriggling out, but you still have to account for the sadism of your beliefs.

Isn't that special.

RED DAVE

EstherRose

I also responded regarding your grandmother on page 3, 4th post down.

I answered truthfully according to my beliefs and I thought with some sensitivity. I cannot know under what circumstances your great grandmother lived through at the concentration camp. Maybe she did accept Jesus in the camp. Some did. Because I do not know her, or anything about her I cannot say if she is saved. I can only tell you that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their Saviour will not go to heaven.

I wouldn't assume all Nazis were Christians. Many of them did not believe in God at all (no slur at all meant to this atheist board). Many others believed in what we call New Age. Many called themselves Christians but did not really believe. Under those circumstances they would not be saved either. According to our beliefs, their fate in hell will be much worse. The bible alludes to degrees of punishment based on sin (Revelation 20:11-15)

winstonjen

But if they REALLY believed, then they would be able to do any deplorable thing and get away with it, right? That's what many people dislike about the religion - it's an evasion of responsiblity, and considers the death of innocent people as a suitable punishment for the 'guilty'. :boohoo:

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): That's apologetic grasping. There is no scriptural basis to assume that Jesus' biological father was not Joseph, or that either of the (conflicting) geneologies given in Matthew and Luke trace his lineage through Mary.

(Fr Andrew): That's apologetic grasping. There is no scriptural basis to assume that the Messiah will return after a period of time to clear up unfulfilled prophecy.

RED DAVE

From EstherRose:

Sensitivity. And now you imply that my great-grandmother might have accepted Jesus in the camp.

Your religion condems the innocent to hell. That is a disgusting, sadistic viewpoint. If I believed in a god like that I'd fight the barbecuing bastard and insist on being sent to hell in solidarity with those down there.

This "I can only tell you" line of yours shows exactly where you stand. You didn't know here, but you send her to hell.

RED DAVE

winstonjen

I concur. The disgusting aspect of Xianity also tries to get around this viewpoint by branding everyone 'guilty'.

RED DAVE

From winstonjen:

Thanks. I appreciate your solidarity. I don't intend to let up on this.

RED DAVE

EstherRose

If they really believed they would not get away with it. The Holy Spirit resides in believers and convicts us when we stray from God. By this I mean the Spirit lets us know that we are not in God’s will. A true believer strives to follow the Lord’s will. Unfortunately many unbelievers such as yourself seem to think that Christians believe they can do anything they want once they are saved. We can’t. We occasionally falter, but the Spirit reminds us in a way we can’t ignore that we are not within the Lord’s will.

Scriptural basis? How’s this.

Matthew 1
18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

How’s this for scriptural basis?

Ezekiel 38
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army-your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops-the many nations with you.

Daniel 9
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Matthew 24
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21
27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Revelation 19
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Javaman

I honestly believe that precepts of Christianity have origins in the fact that Judaism was just to damn hard to follow. They wanted to create a new belief systems but the Romans really came down hard on young religions. So the NT was finagled into loosely (poorly?) tying into the existing OT... bingo! Not new, just updated (fulfilled?). To make it easy to get converts, just let them know that it's OK to screw up, 'cause they're all screw-ups already. So you get the following:

John 14
6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me

EstherRose

I am not condemning anyone. I am not sending anyone to hell. God offers a way for all of us to choose eternal life. I have chosen life. You may choose whatever you like. You may choose to believe whatever you like.

John 3
16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God