Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Keith · 02-17-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by AnthonyAdams45

"One might ask why the NT has nothing to say on the infield fly rule, since it does purport to explain something. At least it would be nice if it explained something useful.

we still haven't been provided with grounds for listening to the Bible rather than the Elder Edda or the Analects, either of which are far less internally contradictory, and much more easily interpreted.

Example? Seems to me I care a lot about my bank balance, the nutritional value of food, the safety of my automobile, and whether I need an umbrella this evening, as do many others, and on all of these things, a moreor less objective position can be derived.

What does this mean? That without an ultimate purposer, there is no ultimate purpose? Okay. So? I, for one, am not interested in an ultimate purpose. My purpose, oddly enough atheists have intentions, my neighbor's purpose, the purpose of the people whose lives intersect in some way with mine, those are the only purposes that interest me. They all exist, all have meaning, whether God exists or not."

The infield fly rule isn't mentioned because there is no reason to.
God knows what knowledge we need to be complete and live fulfilling lives. Do you want to be saved from the consequences of your sins? Then the bible is your book.

The bible is the self-authenticating word of God. That is, the bible is its own testifier of the truth, validity, and genuine-ness of its own claim to be the word of God. It needs no other authority to validate it and it can have no other authority. How does one appeal to an authority higher than God? It is impossible. But I grant you that fallen, unregenerate humans will only read it and laugh. You have sufficient grounds for believing the bible. It isn't God's fault that you reject it. Only God, by his grace, can unblind our willfully blinded eyes and cause us to see the Truth and desire it.

It is interesting to hear your claim that you can be objective in so many important areas of your life. What about all the people who can't keep the bankbook balanced, the obese, the bad drivers....are they all just too stupid to be objective? Are you superior to them? Everyone has the same tendency to be less than perfectly objective on matters that are important to themselves. I very much doubt that you are the exception. And yes, I agree, an objective position can often be derived...but that doesn't mean that the objective solution will be the one chosen.

Are you admitting that without God, there is no ultimate purpose? Lucky for you that your own purposes are good enough for you, but most atheists argue as though there really is an ultimate objective source of Truth which all of us operate under.

Keith

John Page · 02-17-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
It was by God's grace that I saw myself as a sinner in desperate need of his mercy.

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Originally posted by John Page
If I could rephrase your question "How can one know that any religion is true?

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Originally posted by Keith
We can't know which one is true unless God reveals it to us personally.

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Originally posted by John Page
Keith, please can you define or describe what you mean by "Truth".

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Originally posted by Keith
Truth is that which accords with objective fact or reality.

Keith, unless you define your personal revalation of god as an objective fact I think you've skewered your belief into contradiction. This being the case, the need for atheism to explain anything is moot.

Cheers, John

John Page · 02-17-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
The bible is the self-authenticating word of God.

The Christian Bible was written by Jews and edited by a bunch of bishops. This is moreso an objective fact than your claim.

AnthonyAdams45 · 02-17-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

What about all the people who can't keep the bankbook balanced, the obese, the bad drivers....are they all just too stupid to be objective? Are you superior to them?

As a matter of fact, yes. Except the obese, of course, as I am one of them.

Quote:

The bible is the self-authenticating word of God.

In short, you do not wish to hear any discussion on our part, but have concluded that we are wrong, could not possible be right, and the apparent reasonableness of your initial inquiry was a sham?

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You have sufficient grounds for believing the bible.

No, I do not. by your own words:

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Only God, by his grace, can unblind our willfully blinded eyes and cause us to see the Truth and desire it.

Obviously I can never have sufficient grounds, unless God gives them to me. He obviously has not. And any such grounds would clearly need some further justification, since withoutfurther authentication, I am as likely to be taken in by Satan, or Allah, or Vishnu, or Ishtar.

Foo, I say!

Keith · 02-17-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Philosoft

"Your objections indict the whole of human judgement - secular, theistic, whatever. You have yet to even hint at ways to get at this "objective" Truth that purportedly exists and ways to tell when we are being objective. All these appeals to God require God to be the direct source of the information to each individual. As soon as I have to rely on a book or on you or on Jerry Falwell to tell me the information God allegedly wants me to have, your argument renders objectivity highly implausible."

Watch the evening news tonight and then tell me that humans tend to base their opinions on objective evaluations of facts and evidence!

Fallen, unregenerate humans are not the best source for objective Truth. God gave the bible to us for a good reason. We need the Truth, and we need it desperately. We humans have big problems, all of which originate from our sinful nature. God has provided the solution.

Keith

John Page · 02-17-2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
We humans have big problems, all of which originate from our sinful nature. God has provided the solution.

How about, "Most humans believe in god, theerfore a belief in god is a significant contributor to the problems facing mankind. In this sense, god is the cause and not the solution."?

Keith · 02-17-2003, 11:09 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Philosoft

"As yet, he has only asserted that my atheism leaves me in the midst of objective uncertainty. But, as my penultimate post indicates, he necessarily indicts theistic means of objective knowing in the process unless the singular source of the information is God hisownself.

Thus, if Keith is right about human interpretation's inherent subjectivity, I am unable to verify anything Keith says, or anything within the Bible as objectively true. He's not providing a solution - he's saying the problem is nearly unavoidable."

Yes. The source of objective Truth is God himself and God is one who chooses who will be regenerated and thereby see the Truth. I'm offering the solution to you knowing that the solution will be of no avail unless God, by his grace, regenerates you. Salvation is totally the work of God. I can point out the inconsistencies in your worldview, but only God can cause you to want the Truth. And unless you want the Truth, you will never find it. You will spend the rest of your life trying to sound sensible even as you deny the source--the only possibility-- for making any sense of reality.

Keith

Keith · 02-17-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by John Page

"How about, "Most humans believe in god, theerfore a belief in god is a significant contributor to the problems facing mankind. In this sense, god is the cause and not the solution."?

This is really a good point. The solution I'm recommending isn't just to believe in some god; the solution is to believe in the God of the bible.

Keith

Sue Sponte · 02-17-2003, 11:25 AM

Having received no response to the questions I raised, I've concluded that this exercise was intended solely to question atheists, with no self-reflection in return. When you are prepared to direct the same level of scrunity at your own views as you direct at others, the conversation may be worthy of continuing.

Dr Rick · 02-17-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
...the solution is to believe in the God of the bible.

Would that be the same Bible that tells us of talking serpents and donkeys, rabbits chewing cud, and four-legged flying animals? The same Bible that tells us to kill disobedient boys and non-virginal newlyweds? The same Bible that advises us to castrate ourselves if we can and abandon our families? The same Bible that condones genocide and infanticide and the taking of virgin war-booty?

No thanks; we all may want purpose in our lives, but not that kind of purpose. Bible belief isn't a solution for humanity; it's one of the problems for it.

Rick

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02-17-2003, 11:25 AM	#99
Sue Sponte Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: west Posts: 1,213	Having received no response to the questions I raised, I've concluded that this exercise was intended solely to question atheists, with no self-reflection in return. When you are prepared to direct the same level of scrunity at your own views as you direct at others, the conversation may be worthy of continuing.

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