Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Totalitarianist · 08-24-2002, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bible Humper/ SCoW:
Then stop advocating the strangulation of freethought by the rope of indoctrination.

The rest is just meaningless ad hominem, so...

LOL! I only limit change in politics, and I limit
belief in mystical things. And the political
system supports advancements science and
technology more than anything. Indoctrination?
Pfft! Merely scientific study.

Totalitarianist · 08-24-2002, 03:45 PM

How so? Let people be free to rule their own lives, imposing laws and creating restrictions is only a characterization of people who wish to dominate others through means of power and corruption. Further, I find it quite ironic that you of all people would say that considering your appeal to facist states.

You do not understand! I want to eliminate as many obstacles as possible! Do you have a dream? You do the same thing. Social fascist!

And I am not a fascist!

Ah, here comes the straw-man. Remember what purposes I said governments should hold? To protect and serve its citizens, nothing more, nothing less.

But it is not about what they want, it is about what I want! I want the citizens to be protected! I also want a stable government--thus I must have forced education and propaganda so that the government does not alter too much, a possible obstacle for my immortality!

Oh really, Vir? Perhaps you shouldn't universalize the human population with your own self-perceptions. Perhaps you'd like to provide some evidence before making absurd assertions? Oh, I'd forgotten that you like to steer away from that pesky thing called evidence, it only serves to keep you down, right? So where's some objective proofs of this?

LOL! Have not you ever heard of evolutionary psychology? Perhaps you might learn something.

Ah, yes, and for what reasons, Vir, you do know that totalitarianism breeds rebellion and dissent, right?

Not with a healthy combination of meritocracy and stratocracy! Only the corrupt totalitarian regimes breed rebellion.

Bible Humper · 08-24-2002, 04:15 PM

Lad,

Quote:

The rest is just meaningless ad hominem, so...

You sure about that?

Quote:

Well, out of the concepts you have shared with us, you have already abandoned one simply because there is suspicion that you got the idea from a computer game. If it was a sound idea, who cares where it came from?

I realise that you look foolish for adopting the philosophy of a video game character, but the idea is good or bad regardless of where you got it from.

and

Quote:

Neat try, but we can all see how you avoided answering my embarrassing question.

Are you so insecure that you'll dump aspects of your philosophy just because it is suspected that you stole your philosophy from a video game character?

Am I supposed to be afraid now that you have declared me an enemy?

and

Quote:

LOL, in the same statement that you declare that your silliness is not science fiction you declare that it is equally applicable to the moon, the ocean floor, or a space station!!

What a maroon!

note: Yes this was phrased mockingly, but I do question the logic of declaring undersea, lunar, and orbital societies to not be "science fiction"

Now for the bit you actually answered.

Quote:

LOL! I only limit change in politics, and I limit
belief in mystical things. And the political
system supports advancements science and
technology more than anything. Indoctrination?
Pfft! Merely scientific study.

Well, limiting change in these two things would lead to consequences that you haven't considered thanks to your youthful naivete. Perhaps you should goose-step on over to the library and see if you can't find a book that includes the history of Soviet agriculture, especially during your idol Stalin's reign, and learn how strict measures against political change seep into scientific and technological progress.

Bible Humper · 08-24-2002, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Not with a healthy combination of meritocracy and stratocracy! Only the corrupt totalitarian regimes breed rebellion.

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". Your youthfulness is apparent in your lack of belief in this little truism.

There seems to be a silver lining though. "If you haven't become a communist by the time you're twenty you have no heart, if you're still a communist by the time you're thirty you have no brain."

You are only 13, so you seem to be well ahead of schedule.....

Totalitarianist · 08-24-2002, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Bible Humper/ SCoW:
Well, limiting change in these two things would lead to consequences that you haven't considered thanks to your youthful naivete.

And that you have not mentioned thanks to your ignorance.

Perhaps you should goose-step on over to the library and see if you can't find a book that includes the history of Soviet agriculture, especially during your idol Stalin's reign, and learn how strict measures against political change seep into scientific and technological progress.

I have been studying all of those things for quite some time. I still am. I know more about this than you do. You do know that Stalin was, in his own words, "Dizzy with succuss"? You do know that Stalin industrialised the Soviet Union in ten years? You do know that there are many Atheists in Russia now, thanks to him? You do know that the Soviet Union was catapulted to superpower status in less than 30 years?

note: Yes this was phrased mockingly, but I do question the logic of declaring undersea, lunar, and orbital societies to not be "science fiction"

I never said undersea! I said it could be applied anywhere (with enough room)! This includes an ISLAND (I never said undersea), the Soviet Union, Australia, Cuba, a space colony. It is not science fiction! Why did I choose a space colony? you might ask. To eliminate the prospect of unwanted American imperialism!!

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian_Vir ]

Totalitarianist · 08-24-2002, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Bible Humper/ SCoW:
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". Your youthfulness is apparent in your lack of belief in this little truism.

If it were true, it would apply to EVERY totalitarian government. As we all know from history, this is not the case. The corrupt totalitarian governments were corrupt before they become totalitarian.

There seems to be a silver lining though. "If you haven't become a communist by the time you're twenty you have no heart, if you're still a communist by the time you're thirty you have no brain."

You are only 13, so you seem to be well ahead of schedule.....

Oh yes, Einstein had no brain

Bible Humper · 08-24-2002, 06:16 PM

Lad,

Quote:

And that you have not mentioned thanks to your ignorance.

The very next bit you quoted was an example of this. My, what a short memory, junior.

Quote:

I have been studying all of those things for quite some time. I still am. I know more about this than you do.

Whatever, I don't consider rereading the kewl atrocities to be impressive. The most glaring example of your complete ignorance is your insistance that a totalitarian regime would be efficient.

You can claim that with your scifi adjustments all of the problems would magically disappear, but it is obvious to the rest of us that you have a little boy's grasp of the world, which is dominated by your world domination fantasy.

If you do end up goose-stepping on over to the library for info on Soviet agriculture, pick up <a href="http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679720197/702-5956723-5202418" target="_blank">The Rise And Fall Of The Great Powers</a> while you're there and find out about how much factors that had little to do with the system contributed to the "Soviet miracle".

Until you educate yourself, consider the fact that the regime was copied in many other states without experiencing a similar "miracle".

Quote:

I never said undersea! I said it could be applied anywhere (with enough room)! This includes an ISLAND (I never said undersea), the Soviet Union, Australia, Cuba, a space colony. It is not science fiction! Why did I choose a space colony? you might ask. To eliminate the prospect of unwanted American imperialism!!

Do you have the slightest clue how good the American navy is? You thought that your regime would be safe thanks to being surrounded by a little water? Duh?

I didn't think you were that ignorant, so since you were naming other isolated futuristic possibilities, it seemed more likely that you meant underwater than a friggin island.

Quote:

If it were true, it would apply to EVERY totalitarian government. As we all know from history, this is not the case. The corrupt totalitarian governments were corrupt before they become totalitarian.

Before you embarrass yourself by claiming that Hitler's regime was an efficient one, read the book I linked to earlier and learn about how expansionism fueled the Nazi war machine, not so much his system.

Quote:

Oh yes, Einstein had no brain

1. Einstein is not an authority regarding communism.

2. Einstein didn't have the benefit of hindsight that we have now.

3. Appealing to his authority wouldn't change anything anyway, even if he was around today and singing about his admiration of the Soviet regime.

You are a pretty typical idealistic youth, though your ideas are much kookier than most.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper/ SCoW ]

Totalitarianist · 08-24-2002, 06:58 PM

The very next bit you quoted was an example of this. My, what a short memory, junior.

That is not what I meant, and you know it.

Whatever, I don't consider rereading the kewl atrocities to be impressive. The most glaring example of your complete ignorance is your insistance that a totalitarian regime would be efficient.

How does this relate to your inability to refute it? The overt ad homimen you are endlessly displaying does not refute the fact that MY totalitarian regime will work. Repeatedly asserting that I am ignorant does not make you any the more intelligent, nor does it make your argument any stronger; it only proves that you lack the knowledge and the inclination for a decent rebuttal.

You can claim that with your scifi adjustments all of the problems would magically disappear, but it is obvious to the rest of us that you have a little boy's grasp of the world, which is dominated by your world domination fantasy.

Prove it.

If you do end up goose-stepping on over to the library for info on Soviet agriculture, pick up The Rise And Fall Of The Great Powers while you're there and find out about how much factors that had little to do with the system contributed to the "Soviet miracle".

I would rather get a Communist perspective. I suggest you do the same, if you value historical accuracy, that is.

Do you have the slightest clue how good the American navy is? You thought that your regime would be safe thanks to being surrounded by a little water? Duh?

You know that is not what I meant!! I said the form of government could be applied to ANY LOCATION WITH ENOUGH ROOM, but I will choose Trebaxia, and only my Trebaxia, to be in a space colony--to eliminate the prospect of American imperialism!! Do you understand this, man? It quite simply means that Trebaxianism does not equal an "Iron Curtain"!--only I want this! Trebaxianism can be applied to an island, Americans can do whatever they want. Avoiding American imperialism is something completely unrelated to Trebaxianism. Duh?

I didn't think you were that ignorant, so since you were naming other isolated futuristic possibilities, it seemed more likely that you meant underwater than a friggin island.

I did not think you were that stupid, to think that "avoiding American imperialism" is mandatory. Yes, it could be on an island. That does not mean that it must avoid American imperialism!!

Before you embarrass yourself by claiming that Hitler's regime was an efficient one, read the book I linked to earlier and learn about how expansionism fueled the Nazi war machine, not so much his system.

I could not care less about the Nazis! I hate the Nazis! This is irrelevant!! All I said was, if that quote were true, then it would apply to EVERY totalitarian regime!!

1. Einstein is not an authority regarding communism.

2. Einstein didn't have the benefit of hindsight that we have now.

3. Appealing to his authority wouldn't change anything anyway, even if he was around today and singing about his admiration of the Soviet regime.

You are a pretty typical idealistic youth, though your ideas are much kookier than most.

[1] From the quote, we can come to the conclusion that Einstein had no brain.
[2] Einstein had a brain.

Oh yes

, a typical idealist youth! I "typical" idealist youth that had millions of political ideas at age seven, and later discovers the same brilliant ideas in Plato's Reblublic. Oh yes, "typical". You do not know anything about me. Stop fasting. You do not even know if I am fourteen or not. I say that I am older than I actually am more often than not.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian_Vir ]

Bree · 08-24-2002, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Trebaxian_Vir:
[b]I "typical" idealist youth that had millions of political ideas at age seven, and later discovers the same brilliant ideas in Plato's Reblublic. Oh yes, "typical".

So you're saying you're as brilliant as Plato?

Oh please, let's stop the ego-stroking and get back on track!

Eudaimonist · 08-24-2002, 07:49 PM

I have some novels to recommend for anyone who wonders if Communism, historical or theoretical, might be a good idea. Fiction doesn't prove anything, of course, but it can give food for thought.

<a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451526341" target="_blank">

</a> <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451524934" target="_blank">

</a> <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451187849" target="_blank">

</a> <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451191145" target="_blank">

</a>

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

08-24-2002, 04:54 PM	#75
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	Originally posted by Bible Humper/ SCoW: Well, limiting change in these two things would lead to consequences that you haven't considered thanks to your youthful naivete. And that you have not mentioned thanks to your ignorance. Perhaps you should goose-step on over to the library and see if you can't find a book that includes the history of Soviet agriculture, especially during your idol Stalin's reign, and learn how strict measures against political change seep into scientific and technological progress. I have been studying all of those things for quite some time. I still am. I know more about this than you do. You do know that Stalin was, in his own words, "Dizzy with succuss"? You do know that Stalin industrialised the Soviet Union in ten years? You do know that there are many Atheists in Russia now, thanks to him? You do know that the Soviet Union was catapulted to superpower status in less than 30 years? note: Yes this was phrased mockingly, but I do question the logic of declaring undersea, lunar, and orbital societies to not be "science fiction" I never said undersea! I said it could be applied anywhere (with enough room)! This includes an ISLAND (I never said undersea), the Soviet Union, Australia, Cuba, a space colony. It is not science fiction! Why did I choose a space colony? you might ask. To eliminate the prospect of unwanted American imperialism!! [ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian_Vir ]</p>

08-24-2002, 06:58 PM	#78
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	The very next bit you quoted was an example of this. My, what a short memory, junior. That is not what I meant, and you know it. Whatever, I don't consider rereading the kewl atrocities to be impressive. The most glaring example of your complete ignorance is your insistance that a totalitarian regime would be efficient. How does this relate to your inability to refute it? The overt ad homimen you are endlessly displaying does not refute the fact that MY totalitarian regime will work. Repeatedly asserting that I am ignorant does not make you any the more intelligent, nor does it make your argument any stronger; it only proves that you lack the knowledge and the inclination for a decent rebuttal. You can claim that with your scifi adjustments all of the problems would magically disappear, but it is obvious to the rest of us that you have a little boy's grasp of the world, which is dominated by your world domination fantasy. Prove it. If you do end up goose-stepping on over to the library for info on Soviet agriculture, pick up The Rise And Fall Of The Great Powers while you're there and find out about how much factors that had little to do with the system contributed to the "Soviet miracle". I would rather get a Communist perspective. I suggest you do the same, if you value historical accuracy, that is. Do you have the slightest clue how good the American navy is? You thought that your regime would be safe thanks to being surrounded by a little water? Duh? You know that is not what I meant!! I said the form of government could be applied to ANY LOCATION WITH ENOUGH ROOM, but I will choose Trebaxia, and only my Trebaxia, to be in a space colony--to eliminate the prospect of American imperialism!! Do you understand this, man? It quite simply means that Trebaxianism does not equal an "Iron Curtain"!--only I want this! Trebaxianism can be applied to an island, Americans can do whatever they want. Avoiding American imperialism is something completely unrelated to Trebaxianism. Duh? I didn't think you were that ignorant, so since you were naming other isolated futuristic possibilities, it seemed more likely that you meant underwater than a friggin island. I did not think you were that stupid, to think that "avoiding American imperialism" is mandatory. Yes, it could be on an island. That does not mean that it must avoid American imperialism!! Before you embarrass yourself by claiming that Hitler's regime was an efficient one, read the book I linked to earlier and learn about how expansionism fueled the Nazi war machine, not so much his system. I could not care less about the Nazis! I hate the Nazis! This is irrelevant!! All I said was, if that quote were true, then it would apply to EVERY totalitarian regime!! 1. Einstein is not an authority regarding communism. 2. Einstein didn't have the benefit of hindsight that we have now. 3. Appealing to his authority wouldn't change anything anyway, even if he was around today and singing about his admiration of the Soviet regime. You are a pretty typical idealistic youth, though your ideas are much kookier than most. [1] From the quote, we can come to the conclusion that Einstein had no brain. [2] Einstein had a brain. Oh yes , a typical idealist youth! I "typical" idealist youth that had millions of political ideas at age seven, and later discovers the same brilliant ideas in Plato's Reblublic. Oh yes, "typical". You do not know anything about me. Stop fasting. You do not even know if I am fourteen or not. I say that I am older than I actually am more often than not. [ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian_Vir ]</p>

08-24-2002, 07:49 PM	#80
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	I have some novels to recommend for anyone who wonders if Communism, historical or theoretical, might be a good idea. Fiction doesn't prove anything, of course, but it can give food for thought. <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451526341" target="_blank"></a> <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451524934" target="_blank"></a> <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451187849" target="_blank"></a> <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0451191145" target="_blank"></a> [ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

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08-24-2002, 03:45 PM	#72
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	How so? Let people be free to rule their own lives, imposing laws and creating restrictions is only a characterization of people who wish to dominate others through means of power and corruption. Further, I find it quite ironic that you of all people would say that considering your appeal to facist states. You do not understand! I want to eliminate as many obstacles as possible! Do you have a dream? You do the same thing. Social fascist! And I am not a fascist! Ah, here comes the straw-man. Remember what purposes I said governments should hold? To protect and serve its citizens, nothing more, nothing less. But it is not about what they want, it is about what I want! I want the citizens to be protected! I also want a stable government--thus I must have forced education and propaganda so that the government does not alter too much, a possible obstacle for my immortality! Oh really, Vir? Perhaps you shouldn't universalize the human population with your own self-perceptions. Perhaps you'd like to provide some evidence before making absurd assertions? Oh, I'd forgotten that you like to steer away from that pesky thing called evidence, it only serves to keep you down, right? So where's some objective proofs of this? LOL! Have not you ever heard of evolutionary psychology? Perhaps you might learn something. Ah, yes, and for what reasons, Vir, you do know that totalitarianism breeds rebellion and dissent, right? Not with a healthy combination of meritocracy and stratocracy! Only the corrupt totalitarian regimes breed rebellion.

08-24-2002, 04:57 PM	#76
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	Originally posted by Bible Humper/ SCoW: "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". Your youthfulness is apparent in your lack of belief in this little truism. If it were true, it would apply to EVERY totalitarian government. As we all know from history, this is not the case. The corrupt totalitarian governments were corrupt before they become totalitarian. There seems to be a silver lining though. "If you haven't become a communist by the time you're twenty you have no heart, if you're still a communist by the time you're thirty you have no brain." You are only 13, so you seem to be well ahead of schedule..... Oh yes, Einstein had no brain

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