Biff the unclean

But you aren't able to freely worship and love god. God, as presented in the bible, hates free will. He is threatening you with death and worse--eternal torture--unless you do exactly as he says. The existence of Hell negates free will

winstonjen

So long as you subscribe to a certain brand of outmoded blind indoctrination. Your genious ability is shining through, Magus.

Actually, it seems that you save yourself by having faith.

Doctor X

Sending children to Hell all of those years before Junior found a bad way to spend a Friday afternoon seems rather unjust.

--J.D.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
And what makes you think they still wouldn't have talked to him? Satan is very cunning and deceptive.

If he's very cunning and deceptive, why did God let him into the garden? Or was God simply powerless to stop him?

HRG

Sorry, this is the (ridiculous) redefinition of free will by apologists. Free will is demonstrated when I choose to have ham or jam for breakfast, or to post or not to post; it is not inherently tied to a choice between good and evil, no more than to a choice to follow or not to follow gravity.

IOW, a free choice between killing and not killing my family with an axe is not necessary for the existence of free will, no more than a free choice between flying and not flying to the moon by flapping my arms.

Regards,
HRG.

Amaranth

This is a rather rediculous position you keep taking. Have you even read the bible? God spends the majority of the OT directing people to do this and that, and helping them if they get jammed up, and jumping in the fray if they don't do as he wishes. Exodus has god leading the Hebrews around with a leash and a lightning bolt. But wait, there's more - Let's not forget the ever wonderful NT, in which god himself walks around giving orders, changing policy, and instructing people on "the right way" all over again.

Your variation of the already very weak "free will" apologetic has more holes than a cheese grater in it.

Amaranth

So...Do animals have free will?

BadBadBad

That's just the point Sophie, they didn't have a meaningful choice. Here I have another analogy:

You bring home a new puppy. You've only had the poor thing for a couple of days, then you tell the puppy not to pee on the floor. You tell the puppy, if you pee on the floor I'll kill you. What should happen to the puppy when he pees on the floor?

What's missing here? Does the puppy have all the information to make the correct choice and not pee on the floor? Does he know that you have a major ego problem and that having the pitiful puppy disobey you will make you go berserk? Does he know that you're really going to kill him? If he really knew that, dogs kind of have a thing about getting killed. They generally try to avoid that. So, maybe you didn't make that clear enough. Did he know that you're not really going to kill him. What you're really going to do is to take him out of this cushy life in your backyard, and you're going to drive him out in the country and dump him? Did he know you were going to spread some sort of lethal disease to every dog in the future? He didn't seem to understand that. No, the poor puppy didn't have all this information. So guess what is going to happen?

So what did the puppy really choose between? He chose between holding his bladder or peeing on the carpet. Dogs don't like to hold their bladder, and he didn't understand why not, so he chose to pee on the carpet. He chose between uncomfortably holding his bladder, for no reason, or chosing to pee on the carpet. He didn't choose to make you go berserk and freek out because he peed on the carpet. He didn't force you to torture all dogs in the future and spread diseases. He didn't choose to make you dump him in the country to fend for himself. You did that all on your own. Was it fitting that you did all that? Well of course not. Good thing this is a fictional story, otherwise, you'd be a pretty rotten person.

BadBadBad

I don't know about you Magus, but I don't knowingly let my beloved children talk to evil bad people, even if they want to. I guess it's because I love them.

BadBadBad

That's so sick. You don't even sugar coat it with the political correctness of hell as merely a separation of God. Burn Baby Burn!


So for all those christians out there that have loved or currently love a damned person, wives, husbands, children, friends, family, Sophie thinks it's fitting that they burn in hell. What a sick sick view of the world. Thanks for sharing.