Freethought & Rationalism Archive

OCLonghorn · 07-29-2003, 11:21 AM

I'm already a dad (x3) and I am trying my best to raise my kids with an ability to think critically by spending time with them and talking openly with them as life issues arise.

Now I see I've been going about this all wrong! I obviously need to pack my stuff and leave my family tonight to ensure that my kids will never feel the boot of christianity on the back of their neck.

But, I'll miss them...maybe I'll just beat them. Whatever works, right?

Shake · 07-30-2003, 08:00 AM

I think this thread's been done before, but the subject matter is so awful, it deserves some more abuse. Read on.

Quote:

But, Vitz wondered, what if the shoe's on the other foot? Suppose it's the atheists who are engaging in unconscious wish fulfillment?

But, Shake wondered, what happens when a new RC psychologist stumbles onto Pascal's Wager for the first time?

Quote:

What he found is nothing less than astonishing. After studying the lives of more than a dozen of the world's most influential atheists, Vitz discovered that they all had one thing in common: Defective relationships with their fathers. By defective, Vitz means the fathers were dead, abusive, weak, or abandoned their children.

What I find here is astonishing, too! Vitz studied "more than a dozen" atheists! Wow! More than dozen? Dare I even guess perhaps 20?!?

Studies have shown the godless make up approx. 30 million Americans alone! Now, some will say yes, but the number of actual atheists is lower (I've heard about 2% of the pop. as opposed to the roughly 14% that gives us the 30M number). So, OK, let's just say that that figure is even high for the world stage, and only 1% of the world's population are atheists. That still leaves 60 million (!) atheists worldwide! And out of these 60M, Vitz studied a whopping dozen plus, or roughly 0.00002%!

My own father was, and continues to be, a positive role in my life. We have always had a great relationship. I endeavor to be the same for my son. My dad worked a lot when I was young, but the time we spent together was always quality time. As I grew up, he was able to be around more, and he actually influenced my move to atheism, although I don't think he'd be proud of that. But he'd be proud that I came to it on my own, thinking for myself! Vitz is, IMVHO, a moron at worst, and a poor scientist at best.

More of Vitz' ramblings:

Quote:

Faith of the Fatherless is a fascinating study, and provides strong evidence, as Vitz concludes, that "For every [atheist] strongly swayed by rational argument, there are countless others more affected by nonrational, psychological factors."

And this is different from theists, how??? I mean, really. How many theists do we all know who base their "faith" mainly on "nonrational, psychological" and sometimes emotional, factors? Quite a few. Surely far more than a dozen!

Quote:

And that brings us back to our original question: Why can't the average college student walk across the campus without someone dissing his or her faith? According to Vitz, it's because intense atheists "tend, to a remarkable degree, to be found in a narrow range of social and economic strata: in the university and intellectual world and in certain professions."

Vitz does not speculate on why this is, but I will: It appears that these angry atheists want to position themselves in such a way that they will have every opportunity to "evangelize" as many people out of their faith as possible.

Uh oh, not the poor oppressed Xian routine again! Angry Xians want to position themselves in such a way that they will have every opportunity to "evangelize" as many people into their faith as possible.

What is this 'Boundless' anyway? Has anyone attempted to contact the author of this article? Perhaps I will. She seems as deluded as Vitz, as she's bought into his "reasoning."

Edit to add: When I clicked on the link to find out more about Anne Morse (the author), I got this error msg:

Quote:

Error Occurred While Processing Request
Error Diagnostic Information
ODBC Error Code = 37000 (Syntax error or access violation)

[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]The text, ntext, and image data types cannot be compared or sorted, except when using IS NULL or LIKE operator.

The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (CFQUERY), occupying document position (34:2) to (34:50).

Date/Time: 07/30/03 09:01:27
Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0; H010818)
Remote Address: 147.177.11.251
HTTP Referrer: http://www.boundless.org/2000/depart.../a0000223.html
Query String: aid=AM

Rusting Car Bumper · 07-30-2003, 08:31 AM

This is a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc along with using loose rules as to who gets to be a bad father.

For example, a poor father can be (according to Vitz) someone who happened to die early in life to someone who didn't do well in business. Using such a broad range almost any father can be painted badly.

He apparently paints some father child relationships as poor when in fact they were good. (I forget who exactly this was.)

His examples aren't all atheists by a long shot. They include deists and agnostics.

Further, he doesn't explain why poor fathers in a large majority of cases do not produce atheists. And lastly he does not explain why siblings of the (so called) atheists with poor fathers usually didn't turn out to be atheists when they had poor relationships as well.

DC

Shake · 07-30-2003, 01:02 PM

I found out that Boundless is an e-zine, put out by Focus on the Family (or maybe not, but FotF is definitely involved), which explains their skewed view of things. I looked at some other articles there which were also pretty bad.

xorbie · 07-30-2003, 02:28 PM

Any study done by tracking a whopping 12 well know atheists is bullshit in two ways. First of all, the sample size means the study is worth nothing in any way. Second of all, the fact that they are well know means someone could pick something they wanted to prove, then based on common knowledge of famous atheists, find at least 12 atheists that fit the mold.

Thus, even if the poll showed that athiests are good people and theists are shmucks, it means absolutely nothing.

07-30-2003, 01:02 PM	#24
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Boundless revealed! I found out that Boundless is an e-zine, put out by Focus on the Family (or maybe not, but FotF is definitely involved), which explains their skewed view of things. I looked at some other articles there which were also pretty bad.

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07-29-2003, 11:21 AM	#21
OCLonghorn Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Dallas,TX Posts: 183	I'm already a dad (x3) and I am trying my best to raise my kids with an ability to think critically by spending time with them and talking openly with them as life issues arise. Now I see I've been going about this all wrong! I obviously need to pack my stuff and leave my family tonight to ensure that my kids will never feel the boot of christianity on the back of their neck. But, I'll miss them...maybe I'll just beat them. Whatever works, right?

07-30-2003, 08:31 AM	#23
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	This is a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc along with using loose rules as to who gets to be a bad father. For example, a poor father can be (according to Vitz) someone who happened to die early in life to someone who didn't do well in business. Using such a broad range almost any father can be painted badly. He apparently paints some father child relationships as poor when in fact they were good. (I forget who exactly this was.) His examples aren't all atheists by a long shot. They include deists and agnostics. Further, he doesn't explain why poor fathers in a large majority of cases do not produce atheists. And lastly he does not explain why siblings of the (so called) atheists with poor fathers usually didn't turn out to be atheists when they had poor relationships as well. DC

07-30-2003, 02:28 PM	#25
xorbie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Champaign, IL or Boston, MA Posts: 6,360	Any study done by tracking a whopping 12 well know atheists is bullshit in two ways. First of all, the sample size means the study is worth nothing in any way. Second of all, the fact that they are well know means someone could pick something they wanted to prove, then based on common knowledge of famous atheists, find at least 12 atheists that fit the mold. Thus, even if the poll showed that athiests are good people and theists are shmucks, it means absolutely nothing.

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