Sojourner553

Yes. And don't forget the observation that got the young Albert Schweitzer in trouble with his priest who told him he was using too much reason (over faith) for asking:

"what happened to the gold and other presents that the Magi had brought to Jesus--And why were Jesus and his parents still poor after this? "

Not to mention (your point) how after this major publicity event (not to mention angel appearances to Mary/Joseph, depending on whether you read Matthew or Luke) that Jesus' family and town did not believe in his divinity when he became an adult.

Examples:

* When Jesus is informed that his mother and brothers are looking for him,
he replies, "Who are my brother and my brothers?" Then turning to
his followers, he says, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whosoever
does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Mark 3:31-5)


* Jesus' hometown of Nazareth likewise rejected Jesus, saying:

"'Where does he get all this? What is this wisdom that he has been given--
and what about these marvelous things that he can do? He's only the
carpenter, Mary's son, the brother of James, Joses, Judas and Simon; and his
sisters are living here with us!'

"And they were deeply offended with him. But Jesus said to them, 'No
prophet goes unmoored--except in his native town or with his own relations
or in his own home!'

"And he could do nothing miraculous there apart from laying his hands on a
few sick people and healing them; their lack of faith astonished him."
(Mark 6:2-6)

Were they just forgetful -- or were there too many people around making up myths that don't jive together in any meaningful, honest analysis.

There are many religious individuals who have acknowledged that mythical elements have entered into the gospels -- but choose to believe the core message of salvation and the hope of eternal life -- regardless. I have no issue with them. I applaud them for their honesty. (One also doesn't find many fundamentalists in this category.)

I do have an issue with conservative Christians ( including Strobel) who use subterfuge and dishonesty to ignore all facts that don't fit in with their pet theories, while making up a lot of the what's in-between.

I don't think Strobel was ever a "thinking" man's atheist; nor do I find him a thinker/intellectual. Worse -- when I read through his book -- when I wasn't laughing at all the distortions, it angered me to realize much of this "had to be" purposeful lies. In short, I do not think Strobel is an honest person.

In comparison, I have also read Josh McDowell. Now, while I found McDowell's arguments shallow, I did NOT see the dishonesty/purposeful distortions one sees with Strobel. McDowell also did an excellent job being skeptical of OTHER religions and pseudo-science.

Sojourner

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Sojourner553

Justin is acknowledging the "parallels" in some core beliefs shared by pagans and Christians. He thinks this is due to the influence of the devil. Have you really researched this area very carefully, Bede?

And what's this that myths between groups have to be EXACTLY alike to show a common source? I don't think one can PERFECTLY trace the differences between the American and European version of Santa Clause -- although most reasonable people can see that similarities obviously exist.

Neo-Platonism predated Christianity with its belief in the existence of a SPIRITUAL realm
of the universe beyond the senses, located upwards in the sky. An all-powerful and all-good God dwelled at the highest realm of heaven, where a man's spirit could also live with after death, if he lived a good moral life on earth.

Also, the terms "son of God", "savior", "gospel", and "magi" nor "resurrection" were not unique
to the early Christians, but instead were common terms that can be found throughout Greco-Roman literature

############## Indeed, wouldn't Christians have had to "make up these" terms if these concepts were new to Jesus???##################


Here are some parallels with Augustus to show this:

-- On a marble pedestal from Pergamum, was carved the following words:
"The Emperor Caesar, son of God, god Augustus.
(DOCUMENTS FOR THE STUDY OF THE GOSPELS, ed David R. Cartlidge and
David L. Dungan (Cleveland: Collins, 1980), pp 13-14)

-- The Emperor Augustus was described as being sent to this world as a "savior" :

"Whereas the Providence which has guided our whole existence ... has
brought our life to the peak of perfection in giving to us Augustus Caesar,
who it filled with virtue for the welfare of mankind, and who, being sent
to us and to our descendants as a savior, has put an end to war and has
set all things in order; ... and whereas, finally that the birthday of the
God (ie Caesar Augustus) has been for the whole world the beginning of the
gospel concerning him, (therefore let all reckon a new era beginning
from the date of his birth)."

-- According to the historian Seutonius, "a public portent
warned the Roman people some months before Augustus' birth that
Nature was making ready to provide them with a king; and this
caused the Senate such consternation that they issued a decree
which forbade the rearing of any male child for a whole year." (Ibid)
An " astrologer, hearing at what hour the child had been
delivered, cried out, 'The ruler of the world is now born."
(Seutonius, THE DEIFIED AUGUSTUS, 94 trans. JC Rolfe (London
Heinemann, 1914)

Nor were the Greeks/Romans, the only culture to have such beliefs. For example Egyptian Pharaohs were believed to be resurrected to eternal life. This was later imitated by the aristocracy, followed later by the general public. (I always smiled at the part where they embalmed their favorite pets to prepare them for their next life in eternity together).

Sojourner

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Bede

Hi Sojourner,

Christian language and ritual (as I have repeatedly said on these boards) show clear signs of pagan influence. This is what you are talking about but not the point I was making here. This also freaked out Justin quite unnecessarily.

The idea that the life of Jesus is a construct of pagan myths is, however, rubbish. Even the virgin birth and resurrection narratives cannot meet the clear tests required to claim direct parallels as Freke and Gandy try to find.

I appreciate this board assumes extreme positions but you should no me well enough to realise I was not arguing the case you debunked in your post.

Yours

Bede

CX

Personally, I often wonder what all the controversy is about. Virgin birth in some manner, impregnation by the gods or whatever other means and certainly resurrection are common facets of many different religious traditions. While I think it untenable to say that Xianity is unique in these respects are we therefore left with the only alternative that Xianity borrowed directly from pagan myth? This strikes me as a false dilemma which overlooks that most probable case the Xianity is informed by the culture around it and that human religious ideals frequently incorporate these themes. It strikes me as just so much atheological axe grinding probably in response to the copious theological axe grinding of the other side.

Greg2003

How is "Xianity is informed by the culture around it" different from borrowing? Borrowing doesn't have to be the only alternative. It could have been made up by guys who never heard about any of the other myths. Or, just to screw with us, god could have made the whole thing happen in such a way as to make it look like it was borrowed. But your own comment implies borrowing, unless you can somehow distinguish this from "being informed by" the myths.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Greg2003 ]</p>

Sojourner553

Thank you...

Joseph Campbell

Joseph Campbell devoted his life toward studying the mythology that was shared
among different cultures. He argued that he saw the SAME religious symbols
(such as death, rebirth, etc) present in nearly all religions, albeit under
different forms. That is, common ideals and archetypes--such as virgin births,
fertility celebrations, and dying and resurrected gods could be found in most
early civilizations. According to Campbell,

"It's as though the same play were taken from one place to
another, and at each place the local players put on local
costumes and enact the same old play."

Although there were obvious cultural differences in religious "myths"
that he studied, the FEELINGS that were invoked in the stories were the same.
Per Campbell, this occurs because there are some EXPERIENCES that are
UNIVERSAL, or shared by all mankind.

These experiences would include fears of helplessness (like a child who needs help from problem from a fatherly figure) and of course the most important shared fear -- that of death.

Sojourner

Sojourner

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Greg2003

Or how about expressing the change of seasons as a supernatural struggle between the forces of summer and the forces of winter?

But you quote Campell as saying its as if they are dressing up differently but performing the same old play. That sounds an awful lot like groups are imitating each other after exposure to the other's myths.