Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RLV · 06-29-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by -FPY-
I don't particularly mind if the holocaust did happen (and, of course, it did) - but what I do mind are exaggerations and lies which skew historical fact. You owe it to the 'six million' to preserve the events surrounding their deaths as accurately as possible - however convenient it may be to over-simplify and over-estimate events. [...]

Up to here I agree, and I think it's a worthy objective.

Quote:

[...]By the way, why is it that all people that write books on the holocaust - books which affirm and exaggerate it - are Jewish? Are their biases and inclinations to be trusted?

This is blatantly false. I've read a couple written by non-Jews. Besides this, as others point out, it's normal that Jews are more interested in such an event.

Quote:

There is a rebuttal to the Nizkor rebuttal somewhere, Evangelion.

May you point us to it? I'd be interested to read it. Nizkor's text seems to me a very well constructed and documented rebuttal of the IHR claims (some of which, btw, are terribly weak).

Quote:

I am saying that there were reasons behind the German aggression towards Jews - reasons that weren't just 'bigoted' or 'insane' or 'a myth.' I am not justifying them.

Could you please explain them in some detail?

R.L.V.
~~#~~

Monkeybot · 06-29-2003, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by York
Who says the Jews are "innocent?"

What the hell is this supposed to mean???

Cheiron · 06-29-2003, 05:32 PM

I find the crimes commited by nazi germany very heinous for multitudes of reasons. And quite simply If you've been to the death camps, seen the pictures, some films, YOU WOULD NEVER EVER question weather or not it happened.

There aren't that many world war I veterans left. In fact Most of their children are nearly dead too. Does that mean the WWI never happened? how about the Boer war? the American Civil War? how do you know that little big horn wasn't just something somebody made up? How about the Alamo?

As for numbers? Does it really matter? We're talking about attempted GENOCIDE! It doesn't matter weather you got close or not or even succeded, the fact that It was merely attempted deserves to be remembered and punished.

On a side note, I think there's a grand total of exactly 2 successful genocides. that of the Native groups on Newfoundland Canada, and an aborigine group on an island near australia, I can't seem to think of any others.

Lets just say my opinion of the old british empire is hardly upstanding.

On a more rational note, humans have a hard enough problem keeping themselves alive from mistakes by our own stupidity, We really don't want to encourage people trying to kill each other off en masse

Corona688 · 06-29-2003, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by -FPY-
I don't particularly mind if the holocaust did happen (and, of course, it did)

Let's skip ahead a bit..

Quote:

Originally posted by -FPY-
...does not mean that I care about events that may or may not have happened to them quite some time ago.

If it might not have happened, why do you think that it certainly did? Anyway, let's resume...

Quote:

but what I do mind are exaggerations and lies which skew historical fact. You owe it to the 'six million' to preserve the events surrounding their deaths as accurately as possible - however convenient it may be to over-simplify and over-estimate events.

Oversimplify? Overestimate? The Holocaust was one of the best documented crimes in history. There is physical evidence, photographic evidence, written evidence, and thousands of witnesses. Links to a lot of it have been posted already. The Nazis themselves kept extensive documents, and weren't able to destroy them all before Germany was occupied. This 'six million' is the number that was hashed out based on the available evidence. We can't give it to four decimal places, no; it's the SHEER AMOUNT of murder that happened makes it difficult to be more precise.

Quote:

Just because I admire the Jews

I'm hoping you meant this in the metaphorical sense, then.

Quote:

Originally posted by -FPY-

Quote:

Murdering millions of Jews is justified in some way...

This is possibly the only statement which is reasonable.

Anyway...

Quote:

By the way, why is it that all people that write books on the holocaust - books which affirm and exaggerate it - are Jewish?

Exxagerate? If you think it's exxageration, you're welcome to tour the relics of the Nazi death machine and view for yourself how exxagerated it is. And All Jewish? Certainly not. The vast majority? Probably, simply because it was primarily Jewish people that survived - or more often, didn't survive - the Holocaust. Blonde-haired, blue-eyed, Aryan, Christian people in general weren't led off to the death camps and ovens contained therein, and thus don't have much to report about the experience.

Quote:

Are their biases and inclinations to be trusted?

Are you claiming that the entire Jewish culture is subject to the same biases and inclinations? If some were distorting the evidence well beyond the facts, you'd think there'd be other Jewish people gainsaying them. Don't you think there'd be some Jewish people - and yes, they're PEOPLE, not some freaking walking hidden agenda - that wouldn't want to be known as fakers and liars?

Quote:

I am saying that there were reasons behind the German aggression towards Jews - reasons that weren't just 'bigoted' or 'insane' or 'a myth.' I am not justifying them.

[edit] I misread that part, thankfully.

Of course the Nazis had many varying reasons for wanting to exterminate the Jews(along with various other troublemakers and people they didn't want). But the order for it came from the top, and said top left his motivations immortalized in Mein Kampf.

[edited to put the 'I am not justifying them' back in there. Don't know where that went.]

RED DAVE · 06-29-2003, 06:55 PM

First of all, I want to thank all the participators in this thread who have spent their precious time documenting the lies and hatred of [edited by Vork for insult] fpy.

[edited by Vork for personal threat]

RED DAVE

Sue Sponte · 06-29-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Fuck the fucking Talmud, and the fucking Bible, and the fucking Koran. What is your point here? They are all shit.

This is the wisest statement I have ever read.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Vorkosigan · 06-29-2003, 07:45 PM

Francis Parker Yockey wrote one really important work, Imperium, a major intellectual work of the Far Right. It is, as other posters have guessed, largely trash, full of errors, shallow thinking, and overwrought Germanic historical nonsense. I have a copy at home, and when I get there tomorrow I'll put up some choice excerpts here. I urge everyone who has the chance to read it, for it is largely unknown, but highly influential.

Vorkosigan

Ion · 06-29-2003, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by York

...
i have read and heard a few things from ernst zundel and david duke. they both seem like inteligent people who make valid arguments.

what do you guys make of these people like zundel and duke?

my findings are incomplete so i hope no body has a heart attack when i ask this. but was there a holocaust or not? there is a lot of strong arguments made by zundel and a few others out there. that and the whole zionism thing along with this blatent hate literature that makes up the talmud. its all really mind numbing to me as i put the pieces together and figure out whats real and not.

People:

beware of York.

When opening this thread, I remembered that York in another thread by York -named 'jewish influence'-:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=50045

was playing like York is playing in this thread, the innocent who doesn't write well and is not informed so is asking outrageous questions and giving credence to Jewish deniers.

It seems to me from 'jewish influence' and from this thread, that York is obssessed with Jews, to the point of not being innocent about what preoccupies York full-time.

RED DAVE · 06-29-2003, 07:56 PM

Sorry to all, except anti-semites and nazis, that I lost my temper and had to get edited. Everyone is doing a great job of handling these [expletive deleteds]. (Edit mine, RD.)

Here's a review I wrote for epinions.com back in the halcyon days pre-Bush and pre-9/11. Hope you enjoy it.

Quote:

Lest We Forget
Oct 23 '00

I am just finishing reading an extraordinary work of history: Treblinka, by Jean-Francois Steiner, a French-Jewish writer. I bought the actual physical volume, a yellowing (actually browning) paperback with a creased cover, in a thrift store, for a quarter. On the cover is a print of an intense figure: a man, head shaved, dressed in black, with a Jewish star on his right breast, escaping through in barbed wire carrying a rifle! The book looks like what it is: a typical "political" paperback of the Sixties. The edition was published in 1968 by The New American Library, a division of Signet.

I bought the book about a week ago. The blurb on the back told me what it was about: a history and record of the events at the concentration camp Treblinka, in Poland, towards the end of World War II and the end of the Holocaust. It addresses, among other things, the issue of Jewish "passivity" in the face of mass murder. In Treblinka, the living dead, the concentration camp workers, who were forced to cooperate and who cooperated in the work of killing almost 1,000,000 of their fellow Jews, rose up, killed their German and Ukrainian masters, burned the camp to the ground and escaped to the forests beyond. Subsequently, all but forty of the six hundred who escaped were killed by the Germans, Polish and Ukrainian partisans, etc.

This is not a book about some pleasing or quaint sideline of history: some beautiful old inn in the British countryside or about an amusing or exotic custom that survives in some subculture, nor is it the story of an elegant piece of handmade furniture. Such writings are history too. Also history are expositions of the "story" of some group or institution or individual, usually wealthy, powerful and callous: Ronald Reagan, John Churchill, Julius Caesar. All these books have their place.

But this book shows us why the writing of history is essential. Besides entertainment, ordinary education or a good story, history can be a warning. This book is a warning. It is about the worst thing, probably, that ever happened. Something that happened during my lifetime and something that is rapidly being relegated, despite Holocaust museums, memorials and books, to the distant emotionally forgotten past: like the slavery imposed on Africans brought to America or the genocide of the Native Americans.

This relative short book (only 304 pages), shows in detail how the destruction of European Jewry was planned and carried out, what people were like who participated (victims, executioners and those who helped in the executions). And, finally, it tells of one shining moment when, at the bottom of the world and history, from people who could not be any lower, who had nothing to lose, something was done!

People acted. Instead of giving in to despair, instead of suicide or escape, they chose to fight, knowing they would probably die, and most of them did die.

This is a book of history that shows us the extreme, the extreme of the extreme: conditions so horrible that they are almost impossible to imagine. This book says: this happened. The implication is clear: it can happen again.

I can go on and on about this book and about the necessity of reading history. A French critic whose name escapes me at the moment, said, "Those who do not remember the past are condemed to repeat it." Real works of history such as these make us remember.

America is in a very strange time. The country seem to be entranced. The present moment, with its enormous, limited prosperity, is mesmerizing: the presidential election and the World Series are seemingly indistinguishable and about as important. We are affluent; we always have been affluent; we always will be affluent; we deserve affluence. There are no problems. I'm all right, Jack.

In reality, we are living on a fly's wing for the duration of a gnat's breath. Thirty years ago, we were in a horrible destructive war in which over two million people were killed; racism, imperialism and mass poverty were real issues. Fifty-years ago we were finishing an even more horrible war, in which 55 million people were killed, world domination, a form of racism (anti-Semitism), was a survival issue and hundreds of millions were outcast and starving.

"Don't Worry. Be happy." Or read a great work of history like Treblinka and try to grow up.

RED DAVE

Rational BAC · 06-29-2003, 08:15 PM

Interesting thread.

I had a professor back in the mid sixties in graduate school who liked to proclaim that the Holocaust never happened---

- (but he also liked to say Martin Luther Coon, Sigmund Fraud, and he called black people "monkies" ---or to be exact ="singes"--since it was a French Literature course that he was conducting--he did get off subject a lot)----

---Anyway most of us students back then considered him to be a serious nut case.

I did read most of the links provided--------All I can say is you can spin all you want to and argue about the details of it, but numbers do not lie--somehow 6 million jews (innocent non-combattants) completely disappeared from Europe (=died) during the 2nd WW.

Sounds like genocide to me, however it happened. Argue about the details of it all you want to-------it makes no real difference.

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06-29-2003, 05:32 PM	#73
Cheiron Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Posts: 371	I find the crimes commited by nazi germany very heinous for multitudes of reasons. And quite simply If you've been to the death camps, seen the pictures, some films, YOU WOULD NEVER EVER question weather or not it happened. There aren't that many world war I veterans left. In fact Most of their children are nearly dead too. Does that mean the WWI never happened? how about the Boer war? the American Civil War? how do you know that little big horn wasn't just something somebody made up? How about the Alamo? As for numbers? Does it really matter? We're talking about attempted GENOCIDE! It doesn't matter weather you got close or not or even succeded, the fact that It was merely attempted deserves to be remembered and punished. On a side note, I think there's a grand total of exactly 2 successful genocides. that of the Native groups on Newfoundland Canada, and an aborigine group on an island near australia, I can't seem to think of any others. Lets just say my opinion of the old british empire is hardly upstanding. On a more rational note, humans have a hard enough problem keeping themselves alive from mistakes by our own stupidity, We really don't want to encourage people trying to kill each other off en masse

06-29-2003, 06:55 PM	#75
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	First of all, I want to thank all the participators in this thread who have spent their precious time documenting the lies and hatred of [edited by Vork for insult] fpy. [edited by Vork for personal threat] RED DAVE

06-29-2003, 07:45 PM	#77
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Francis Parker Yockey wrote one really important work, Imperium, a major intellectual work of the Far Right. It is, as other posters have guessed, largely trash, full of errors, shallow thinking, and overwrought Germanic historical nonsense. I have a copy at home, and when I get there tomorrow I'll put up some choice excerpts here. I urge everyone who has the chance to read it, for it is largely unknown, but highly influential. Vorkosigan

06-29-2003, 08:15 PM	#80
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Interesting thread. I had a professor back in the mid sixties in graduate school who liked to proclaim that the Holocaust never happened--- - (but he also liked to say Martin Luther Coon, Sigmund Fraud, and he called black people "monkies" ---or to be exact ="singes"--since it was a French Literature course that he was conducting--he did get off subject a lot)---- ---Anyway most of us students back then considered him to be a serious nut case. I did read most of the links provided--------All I can say is you can spin all you want to and argue about the details of it, but numbers do not lie--somehow 6 million jews (innocent non-combattants) completely disappeared from Europe (=died) during the 2nd WW. Sounds like genocide to me, however it happened. Argue about the details of it all you want to-------it makes no real difference.

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