Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NeilUnreal · 08-02-2002, 05:08 AM

I'm been following the career of Mkole mbembe ever since reading a chapter about it in an Ivan Sanderson book as a wee lad. I have to say that I never really held out much hope, even when I was younger and less skeptical, and I think the rhino thing pretty much finishes off the whole legend.

But still, wouldn't it just rock if a small band of "fringe" explorers managed to crate-up and drag home a sauropod? Just like an old Ray Harryhausen movie. Scientific discovery always has this bittersweet quality whenever it dispels legends.

(With Morning Comes Mistfall by George R. R. Martin is a great fictional treatment of this interplay between science, emotion, and mystery.)

-Neil

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: NeilUnreal ]

MrDarwin · 08-02-2002, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus:
Also, like camaban, I am a little confused as to why they think a living dinosaur would disprove evolution. How long have crocodiles been around relatively unchanged, after all?

and:

Quote:

Originally posted by Camaban:

And how long have sharks remained unchanged?

Please remember to qualify that "unchanged" with a "relatively"! Creationists use this chestnut all the time: if things evolve then why haven't coelacanths changed, or horseshoe crabs, etc. Of course when you point out that they have changed, that none of the modern species are known from the fossil record, or even outline the differences between living and fossil species, they will turn around and say it's just "variation within kind".

They just don't seem to get that different groups of organisms can evolve at different rates, and some can remain relatively stable over very long periods of time (morphologically, at least--we have no way of measuring how much they may have changed genetically).

Queen of Swords · 08-02-2002, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NeilUnreal:
With Morning Comes Mistfall by George R. R. Martin is a great fictional treatment of this interplay between science, emotion, and mystery.

Runner-up for the Nebula Award, 1973.

Mageth · 08-02-2002, 07:31 AM

I saw a documentary recently from the congo, actually about the native humans, but there was a lot of talk about mockolocky embeybey as well.
At one point, one of the people filming the documentary was showing them through his species identification guidebook, and turned to the page showing a rhinocerous. Thats him! mkole mbebe!. There was instant recognition. Mkole Mbebe is some kind of Rhino, which is fairly interesting since rhinos aren't normally known in the area.

I saw that. The Lake Tele region, where mokele-mbembe supposedly is a denizen, was not that long ago (a few centuries?) open grasslands with islands of trees (prime habitat for African rhinos) rather than the thick forest it is now. IIRC, a certain kind of nut that grows on trees only in drier climes can still be found embedded in streambeds in the region. Mokele-mbembe is a folk-memory of rhinos passed down by the local peoples.

Godless Dave · 08-02-2002, 07:36 AM

The more resources they spend on crazy expeditions like this the less they will have to try to get their BS into science classes. I hope they organize a few more expeditions.

theyeti · 08-02-2002, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:
The more resources they spend on crazy expeditions like this the less they will have to try to get their BS into science classes. I hope they organize a few more expeditions.

My thoughts exactly! This is acutal "research", at least of a kind. It's the sort of research that only a fool would conduct (especially since the ICR is not the first group of westerners to go seraching for mkele-mbembe). But if they did find such a thing, it would actually be of great interest for science. If they actually spent their time and money doing research (however misguided) instead of publishing propaganda, they wouldn't be nearly so loathsome.

theyeti

KnightWhoSaysNi · 08-02-2002, 09:54 AM

Perhaps the expedition team is trained <a href="http://www.dinosauradventureland.com/dal.asp?pg=video" target="_blank">here</a> before they go.

RobertE · 08-02-2002, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nightshade:
Perhaps the expedition team is trained <a href="http://www.dinosauradventureland.com/dal.asp?pg=video" target="_blank">here</a> before they go.

Sweet freakin Jeezus! What a joke that place is.

Check out the <a href="http://www.dinosauradventureland.com/dal.asp?pg=rides&specific=2" target="_blank">"Congo Run"</a>

I'm surprised they don't have midgets in blackface with bones through their noses poking spears at the little Xtian spawn.

Mageth · 08-02-2002, 12:12 PM

That place looks like a Lawsuit Waiting to Happen if I ever saw one.

Major Billy · 08-02-2002, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Evolution and its accompanying necessity of long ages of evolutionary development would be hard pressed to accommodate a living dinosaur.

Apparently the creationists think that the theory of evolution says that life must evolve, continuously, all the time, and that the rare instances of living fossils disprove that.

Incidentally, if the ICR really wanted to find <a href="http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html" target="_blank">living dinosaurs</a>, they didn't need to go all the way to Africa!

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Major Billy ]

08-02-2002, 05:08 AM	#11
NeilUnreal Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 77	I'm been following the career of Mkole mbembe ever since reading a chapter about it in an Ivan Sanderson book as a wee lad. I have to say that I never really held out much hope, even when I was younger and less skeptical, and I think the rhino thing pretty much finishes off the whole legend. But still, wouldn't it just rock if a small band of "fringe" explorers managed to crate-up and drag home a sauropod? Just like an old Ray Harryhausen movie. Scientific discovery always has this bittersweet quality whenever it dispels legends. (With Morning Comes Mistfall by George R. R. Martin is a great fictional treatment of this interplay between science, emotion, and mystery.) -Neil [ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: NeilUnreal ]</p>

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08-02-2002, 07:31 AM	#14
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I saw a documentary recently from the congo, actually about the native humans, but there was a lot of talk about mockolocky embeybey as well. At one point, one of the people filming the documentary was showing them through his species identification guidebook, and turned to the page showing a rhinocerous. Thats him! mkole mbebe!. There was instant recognition. Mkole Mbebe is some kind of Rhino, which is fairly interesting since rhinos aren't normally known in the area. I saw that. The Lake Tele region, where mokele-mbembe supposedly is a denizen, was not that long ago (a few centuries?) open grasslands with islands of trees (prime habitat for African rhinos) rather than the thick forest it is now. IIRC, a certain kind of nut that grows on trees only in drier climes can still be found embedded in streambeds in the region. Mokele-mbembe is a folk-memory of rhinos passed down by the local peoples.

08-02-2002, 07:36 AM	#15
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	The more resources they spend on crazy expeditions like this the less they will have to try to get their BS into science classes. I hope they organize a few more expeditions.

08-02-2002, 09:54 AM	#17
KnightWhoSaysNi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 2,767	Perhaps the expedition team is trained <a href="http://www.dinosauradventureland.com/dal.asp?pg=video" target="_blank">here</a> before they go.

08-02-2002, 12:12 PM	#19
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	That place looks like a Lawsuit Waiting to Happen if I ever saw one.

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