Jayhawker Soule

If you'll forgive the phrase, Lord knows it takes little imagination and less effort to respond to every gap in knowledge with "God did it." What requires imagination, in my opinion, is the belief that such an answer is more meaningful than 'We don't know yet'.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Seb_Maya

Originally posted by kind Bud:
The atheist will try to poke a hole in the wall to see what is outside.

The theist will sit on the floor and pray for understanding.

Who is more likely to learn the true nature of his situation?
-----------------------------------------------
I disagree, the atheist does not try to poke holes in the wall. He stays inside the room and investigates its contents. A table, a chair what is it for? what is made from? etc (i.e. science.)
This is not to say that theists are against science, but yes they will pray and meditate in order to communicate or align themselves with the divine.

eh

By definition, the universe is all there is. But it doesn't take faith to take a look at a universe that operates by natural means and assume that this is all there is. It is the theist who proposes the existence of magic. We know the natural world exists, but we have zero evidence for the magical worlds proposed by theistic religions.

No, you just lack the education to make a serious comment about cosmology. Actually, you don't even need a formal education, you just need to read some books. This is not an insult.

The energy in the universe did not form out of nothing, and no one is making that claim. How many times do you have to read that before you'll stop making claims to the contrary?

Energy also sounds like something necessary for any possible world, so I don't see anything arbitrary about it. At the very least, it seems like a much better explaination than some deities feeling creative.

Greg2003

I agree with the theists here. Problem solving always requires imagination and creativity. Theism is a cop out that ends the enquiry. It is not imaginative to think that god is more meaningful than a natural explanation. It is doctrinaire and dogmatic; the abscence of imagination.

Aquila ka Hecate

With respect, Tercel,this is Bollocks.

I don't know any atheists who declare this at all.
You seem to be confusing the stance of "This is what we can see and interpret, let us deal with this" with "There's nothing more.End of story"

The overwhelming atheist position appears to be the former.
What may be misleading you is our very real reluctance to ascribe the physical observable universe to anything supernatural.

Seb_Maya:
I would tend to disagree right back at you-I do think most atheists would be more inclined to try to punch a hole in the wall.

However,studying the nature and composition of the objects in the room-even that of the room itself-would be far more likely to tell us something about 'the world outside the room'

Theists praying to 'communicate or align themselves with the divine' have achieved absolutely nothingin the way of understanding our universe to compare with that which scientists have.
The very fact that conditions previously ascribed to 'the divine' are constantly being explained by science,and that the reverse never occurs
should be enough to convince you of that.

Seb_Maya

Thank you Aquila ka Hecate i find your comments very interesting. But aren't the atheists contradicting themselves? So you do want to poke holes in the wall? why? Is there something beyond the wall? Are you saying that there could possibly be something beyond the universe?
Secondly I have a lot of respect for what science has achieved and taught us, but to say that 'theists praying and meditating to communicate or align themselves with the divine have achieved absolutely nothing in the way of understanding our universe' is to belittle the teachings of people such as Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha etc. Their spiritual teachings are of great significance and value. Science can only point out that for example a+b=c. Cause and effect. It can tell me that I feel a certain emotion because my brain releases a chemical, but it cannot tell me why I feel this emotion in the first place. There is a grey area in which science cannot offer us an explanation.

advocate_11

Certainly there could be something beyond the wall. This should not be surprising unless your definition of wall is "something beyond which there is no thing".

Neither spiritual teachings nor understanding our universe need be seen as valuable. Yet as to which is more significant, that depends upon what criteria we use to rate significance.

Actually, you are attempting to make a distinction where there is none. You feel that emotion because your brain released the chemical. Further, I believe that you will find many experienced practicioners of science that will tell you why your brain released that chemical.

I realize that you are attempting to say, "Science tells us the how, religion tells us the why." It is not clear to me how define "why" to refer to a reason other than "cause" without begging the question.

You see, these things are very easy to say, but it will be difficult for this discussion to get anywhere unless such a definition is provided, or a proof is offerred that a "deeper reason" exists necessarily.

[edit: wording]

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: advocate_11 ]</p>

Jobar

Originally posted by Tercel:
"It's always seemed to me to take a lot of faith for the atheist to declare the universe is all there is."

Sigh. How many times must we repeat that we have no faith. We hold no absolute and unquestionable beliefs! We label no thought or theory "Final and Ultimate." We hold beliefs, yes- but we always question them when new information is acquired. We do NOT declare that "The universe is all there is"- in fact, one of the more useful and fruitful interpretations of quantum theory is called "Many Worlds" and is accepted by many top physicists, including Stephen Hawking. (I feel I must state that 'accepted' here means "acceptance as a working hypothesis" and NOT FAITH!)

Tercel, one of the reasons I reject the faith of my fathers is that it is so... so TINY. Compared to the universe we see with our science, Christianity is childish, tinkertoy. (Not to mention boring, and unjust, and downright evil!)

beausoleil

I have faith that certain ways of looking at evidence are appropriate to judging issues. I'm not aware of any non-circular ways of showing that this faith is justified.

Vic

[QUOTE]The atheist will try to poke a hole in the wall to see what is outside.

I somehow doubt that. What the atheist would do would be to assume that the room was there from the beginning.