Freethought & Rationalism Archive

phillds · 01-06-2002, 11:32 AM

This was in an article on ESPN about Mark Gastineau. It indicates that he was able to avoid going to prison by attending a church-sponsored program. Is this NY state or federal law which allows one to do this?

"To avoid incarceration, he was given the option of attending a Church-sponsored program for first-time offenders. That eventually led him to The Times Sqaure Church, where, he said, he found religion."

Link:
<a href="http://msn.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/garber_greg/1305782.html" target="_blank">ESPN Article - Church program in place of prison</a>

Toto · 01-06-2002, 12:32 PM

These diversion programs have been around for a long time at both the state and federal level - Alcoholics Anonymous is the most famous. I don't see a problem unless church programs are the only available programs, or church programs get more endorsement than secular programs.

This is a pathetic story - 45 year old has-been athlete who messed up his life, used a lot of drugs, and never learned basic self control finally comes to, with a little help from the criminal justice system. But he thinks he needs the crutch of Jesus died for his sins to go on (his own "get out of Hell free" card).

Conservatives like Martin Olasky use this sort of story to claim that this is evidence of the truth of Christianity, and a reason for government to subsidize religion. But they don't have the statistics to show that it works better than a secular alternative.

DougI · 01-07-2002, 07:22 AM

I can actually see the benefit to the program. Considering prisons are so filled with religion the church alternative would be of little difference. Just like attending those ultra-religious AA meetings church would be little different, the offenders won't pay attention in church. Since I get the police called on me every other week by the anti-abortionists I'd love being sent to church instead of prision. I could screw with the church rather than being screwed by a guy named Bubba.

PopeInTheWoods · 01-07-2002, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DougI:
<strong>Since I get the police called on me every other week by the anti-abortionists....</strong>

Not to be too nosy, but is there a story I've missed here?

Andy (PITW)

PopeInTheWoods · 01-07-2002, 08:09 AM

Whoops, I just checked your profile. This harassment wouldn't have anything to do with AA, would it?

Andy (PITW)

Toto · 01-07-2002, 09:44 AM

From Doug's homepage:

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~kansasatheist/meth.html" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~kansasatheist/meth.html</a>

Quote:

Kansas Atheists has, for the past couple of months, has joined with Wichita Choice Alliance to provide clinic support. Wichita is home to two abortion providers and are under constant assault by militant, often fundamentalist Christian, anti-choicers. Kansas Atheists oppose the efforts of facist ideologists to overturn the Supreme Court ruling to a right of privacy as well as the violent actions of domestic terrorists.

Graeme D · 01-09-2002, 07:21 PM

Our prime Minister here in Australia appointed his own former church leader, Archbishop Hollingworth as our Governor General. So now we not only have a former prelate as our ultimate head of state, but he represents the ruler of another country -the Queen of England. Role on a Republic!

PopeInTheWoods · 01-09-2002, 09:27 PM

Doug1,

Just read your harrowing tales (thanks for the link Toto). You rule. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Why are the police so hostile to the clinic? Are they fundy-bots individually, or are they under orders from their fundy superiors (or maybe both)? Also, were these clinics targeted by the anthrax hoax this past fall?

Andy (PITW)

DougI · 01-10-2002, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PopeInTheWoods:
<strong>Doug1,

Just read your harrowing tales (thanks for the link Toto). You rule. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Why are the police so hostile to the clinic? Are they fundy-bots individually, or are they under orders from their fundy superiors (or maybe both)? Also, were these clinics targeted by the anthrax hoax this past fall?

Andy (PITW)</strong>

We know of at least one cop who is strongly sympathetic with the pro-life terrorists. When Refuse and Resist came to assist with Summer of Mercy the police were eager to garner some arrests. They videotaped all of us to get us on file. When some anti's started shoving the leaders of R&R the police arrested the leaders when they tried to maintain their position. The officer took the stand and completely lied his ass off about what happened in order to get them in jail. When two pastors were arrested for blocking the clinic there was no bail and no jail time (although it is a federal fine of $10,000).

I could go on about Summer of Mercy but I'll keep it brief. Pro-choicers were assaulted, chased down, stalked and were given death threats. The police response was nil. Even when I was attacked within a few feet of a cop and the person admitted to the crime the officer did nothing.

The fundies have a new leader sent over from San Francisco. The new cult leader has been arrested a couple of times. I'm not sure but he may have been the one who preached to gay men in a public restroom. He would stand on a toilet, peer over the barrier and tell them about their sins. If it is the same person he got arrested for this twice. All I know for sure is he can read the Bible louder than anyone else there.

Tiller's hasn't received an anthrax threat lately. This summer there were a couple of bomb scares though but the police never investigated the issue.

The fundies proclaim their persecution but it is they who go and disrupt church services and attack clergy who are pro-choice. During the Summer of Mercy they set up a sound system (we had our signs confiscated if we lost contact with them for a moment, no fundy had his sign confiscated). Over the system they openly broadcast their death threats. As usual the police did nothing. I might as well be a Black man in Alabama driving a Lexus.

01-06-2002, 11:32 AM	#1
phillds New Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1	Go To Church Instead of Prison? This was in an article on ESPN about Mark Gastineau. It indicates that he was able to avoid going to prison by attending a church-sponsored program. Is this NY state or federal law which allows one to do this? "To avoid incarceration, he was given the option of attending a Church-sponsored program for first-time offenders. That eventually led him to The Times Sqaure Church, where, he said, he found religion." Link: <a href="http://msn.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/garber_greg/1305782.html" target="_blank">ESPN Article - Church program in place of prison</a>

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01-06-2002, 12:32 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	These diversion programs have been around for a long time at both the state and federal level - Alcoholics Anonymous is the most famous. I don't see a problem unless church programs are the only available programs, or church programs get more endorsement than secular programs. This is a pathetic story - 45 year old has-been athlete who messed up his life, used a lot of drugs, and never learned basic self control finally comes to, with a little help from the criminal justice system. But he thinks he needs the crutch of Jesus died for his sins to go on (his own "get out of Hell free" card). Conservatives like Martin Olasky use this sort of story to claim that this is evidence of the truth of Christianity, and a reason for government to subsidize religion. But they don't have the statistics to show that it works better than a secular alternative.

01-07-2002, 07:22 AM	#3
DougI Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Wichita, KS, USA Posts: 932	I can actually see the benefit to the program. Considering prisons are so filled with religion the church alternative would be of little difference. Just like attending those ultra-religious AA meetings church would be little different, the offenders won't pay attention in church. Since I get the police called on me every other week by the anti-abortionists I'd love being sent to church instead of prision. I could screw with the church rather than being screwed by a guy named Bubba.

01-07-2002, 08:09 AM	#5
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	Whoops, I just checked your profile. This harassment wouldn't have anything to do with AA, would it? Andy (PITW)

01-09-2002, 07:21 PM	#7
Graeme D New Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Gold Coast, Australia Posts: 1	Our prime Minister here in Australia appointed his own former church leader, Archbishop Hollingworth as our Governor General. So now we not only have a former prelate as our ultimate head of state, but he represents the ruler of another country -the Queen of England. Role on a Republic!

01-09-2002, 09:27 PM	#8
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	Doug1, Just read your harrowing tales (thanks for the link Toto). You rule. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> Why are the police so hostile to the clinic? Are they fundy-bots individually, or are they under orders from their fundy superiors (or maybe both)? Also, were these clinics targeted by the anthrax hoax this past fall? Andy (PITW)

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