The Other Michael

And with that masterly summation by marduck (though I see EarlFLynn slipped in while I was composing this), I think I'm going to close this thread before it deteriorates to the point where more pointed moderator action is needed.

If anyone wants to reopen the subject, I'd suggest that you wait a few days and let everyone digest everyone else's comments at their leisure and away from the passions of argumentation.

cheers,
Michael
Administrator

The Other Michael

Well, the moderators feel that my "it looks like trouble is brewing and irons need to be struck while hot" trigger finger was overly itchy, and if there was a hell my good intentions were probably paving a road to it.

So carry on, and sorry for the interruption.

chastened,
Michael

viscousmemories

I'm glad you chose to clarify your position with this post, because it strikes me as more reasonable (i.e. less emotion-based) than your OP, and I agree that killing the dog doesn't solve the bigger problem of the human that messed with the dog in the first place.

For the record: Though I appreciate your emotional sensitivity to this issue and your desire to advocate on behalf of dogs, I think your comment that some posters "sound like Christians" in their reasoning was unnecessarily abrasive. Whether or not you appreciate godfry n. glad's opinion about the dog issue, I have to agree that he deserves an apology for that remark.

Just my opinion.

vm

reprise

FWIW, the only circumstance under which I would not euthanase an adult dog of mine which attacked a human being is if that person was trying to break into our home or harm one of our family.

Bad Kitty

I have four dogs, two Great Pyrenees (over 125 pounds each), a German Shepherd, and a Mini Schnauzer (here are pics of them -- I'm such a proud parent!)

I am extremely careful with my dogs to try and ensure that there is never an opportunity for a tragic accident to occur. And I also recognize that they are animals (as much as I treat them like little kids) and that as such, they are never 100% predictable.

My dogs are kept inside when I am not home and are supervised when they are in my yard. I have "Beware of the Dog" signs on my six-foot fence and the gates are locked as well (to stop children from wandering in to get a frisbee or something).

I also often walk the larger ones in the neighborhood (ALWAYS on lead) and give my neighbors an opportunity to meet them and know that they are friendly. My goal in doing so is that if something bizarre happens and my dogs get free (say a tree falls over and knocks out a window of my house allowing my dogs to escape) that hopefully people in the neighborhood will not just have the dogs shot for running loose.

That being said, I can still understand why people would err on the side of caution when large dogs are on the street. Last year I lived in a different neighborhood and my next-door neighbor had a Saint Bernard named Hazel. She was huge (about 150 lbs), but sweet. I talked to her through the fence and allowed her to sniff and lick my hands every day. One day we had a tornado pass over our neighborhood and my neighbor's fence blew apart. The Saint Bernard started running around in the street, and it really looked terrifying. She was soaked with rain, muddy, huge, with the common SB droopy looking blood shot eyes � she looked just like Cujo.

None of my neighbors would help me round her up (her owners were at work), and I really couldn't blame them. She was terrifying. The dog was definitely on edge, because of the storm and barked at everyone who came out of their house, including me. I was afraid to leave her, though, because we live one street away from busy traffic where she would easily be hit by a car. As I approached her with a leash I recognized that fact that I couldn't truly say that she wouldn't go for me in her current state of mind. I realized what I was risking when I got up close to her, and I can't say that it was the smartest thing I've ever done. Fortunately, she let me put the leash on her and I got her calmed down on my patio, but the truth is that it was a dicey situation and one that easily could come out differently.

godfry n. glad

For those who have not seen the full post from another thread which three4jump decided to selectively quote my final hyperbolic comment, here is the entire post:

So... I'm a bit curious about dog-owners and their dogs, particularly the larger breeds.

Why is it that a urban dweller would acquire a dog for which they have inadequate personal space and then demand that the local municipal government provide space for these pets to run off-leash?

Why should the body public pay for the poor decision-making abilities of those who acquire pets too large for their personal property?

I have witnessed locally what I consider to be mass irresponsibility of dog-owners to what they say is inadequate park space dedicated to off-leash runs for dogs. The response has been to ignore all postings of on-leash only rules and do as they want with impunity. When their violation of the local leash laws are pointed out to them, they respond with scoffing or, even worse, intimidation. Yes, I have had a dog-owner threaten me with his dog in a public park because I pointed out to him that he was violating public ordinances regarding dog leash laws.

I used to appreciate dogs, but since this recent rise in stupidity of dog owners and highly irresponsible and potentially life- and limb-threatening behavior on the part of dog-owners, I no longer think of them as benevolent, or even benign. They are a malevolent subgroup of our society, intent having the public pay for their stupidity and wielding dangerous and deadly weapons.

Frankly, I'm tired of scraping dogshit off my property and I feel threatened by dogs inadequately under their masters' control.

I'm ready to start pushing for a more rural outlook in my urban community. I think that dogs off-leash where it's illegal to be so, should be fair game....and I mean game in the sense of a target for those with guns. Shoot on sight any dog when it is off-leash where it shouldn't be...

godfry
- - - - - - - - - - -


First...I have couched much of the phrasing as "dog-owners" where it should read "irresponsible dog-owners". I'm fairly certain that most readers can make that change...but I wonder about three4jump.

I'm fully aware that my suggestion will never be implemented, because most urban areas have laws against discharging firearms within city limits.

I find it curious that three4jump seems to be entirely ignorant of the paradigm regarding loose dogs in rural America... or rural anywhere, so far as I know. Let your dog run loose so that it invades the property of others and threatens livestock (note: livestock, not humans!), you can expect that the dog will be shot. There is no sentimental surrogate-child kind of attitude associated with loose dogs...they are varmints. And it is supported by the law. That attitude of swift and sure justice engenders a more appropriate attitude amongst rural dog-owners in terms of keeping control of their animals. My point was that such a paradigm produces the type of behavior that should be expected of all dog-owners, especially that of urban dwellers whose irresponsible behavior engenders unnecessary and preventable dog attacks on humans, mostly small children, in public spaces.

From my observation of irresponsible dog-owners in my urban area, I suspect that only such a drastic response will actually bring to a halt all the scofflaws who run their animals off-leash in clearly posted on-leash areas.

To illustrate that point, I'll point out that recently there was a spate of poisonings of dogs in a single public park in my city. There was a huge outcry of rage from dog-owners and the city officials have responded by designating more full- and limited-access off-leash areas in the city; something they've been dragging their feet on for years. What has been curious is that in the interim, it has been possible to walk through almost _any_ city park without seeing an off-leash dog. It's sad but true to note that it is only when irresponsible dog-owners' precious pets are threatened do they revert to the proper behavior they should have been demostrating all along by keeping their animals ON-LEASH.

As an additional note, even if the perpetrator is apprehended, it will not reduce the possibility of future poisonings, for each and every child who inadvertantly leaves a chocolate bar behind in a park is a potential inadvertant dog-poisoner. If dog-owners have their animals on-leash, they can prevent the dog's consumption of potentially dangerous edible items left behind.

I'll revise my opinion on what should happen to dogs who attack humans... I'd recommend that dogs who are in violation of any other animal control ordinance (leash law, etc.) and bite a human, should be euthanized immediately. No appeal, no "one free bite".

Additionally, I'd suggest that any irresponsible dog-owner seen allowing their pet off-leash in an on-leash area should be cited for animal abuse and treated accordingly.

You know, three4jump, you sound like those evangelical bible thumping apologists, sanctimoniously lecturing others about what they should think, arguing fine points and quoting others entirely out of context. Hmmmm....

godfry

livius drusus

I remind godfry, three4jump and anyone else who may feel like pawing the ground that:

Kindly keep the Forum Rules and Policies in mind, especially when discussing emtionally-laden topics, and refrain from character smears of any kind.

Thank you,
livius drusus
Moderator - MD

three4jump

Since you seem to be a responsible dog owner, the only way one of your dogs would attack someone (other than the break-in/tresspass scenario) would be because of some unforeseeable event such as the tornado refered to in the other post, or because of a lack of training or adequate precations on your part. Would you euthanize one of your dogs because of an attack that was not his fault?

three4jump

TheBigZoo, I would personally like to thank you for taking that risk, which some would say was foolish, to round up the distressed dog. I would like to have you as a neighbor.

During a thunderstorm, which is rare around here, my wife and I found a Siberian Husky mix, soaked and frightened, on the on ramp to the freeway. Cars were zooming by her without a glance, and it was only a matter of time until someone hit her. She snarled and snapped at me, but she finally let me pick her up and put her inside the truck. She was bleeding, and her injury was probably adding to her tension. If she had bitten me, I would not have held it against her. Once she calmed down, it was obvious she ws a sweet girl who only snarled and snapped because she was scared. I took her to my vet, who treated her for free on a Sunday. The owners were on vacation, and the woman who was watching the dog was horrified that she had lost a dog under her watch. The thunderstorm, the owners being away, and the dog sitter being unfamiliar with the dog all contributed to putting this dog in a rare situation where she would bite.

That's what I worry about with my dogs. I would hope they would run into someone like you.

lisarea

I thought I was the only one who was that worried about my dog. You guys are too cool.

I also have several layers of protection that I've put in place against my dog escaping and getting hurt or scaring someone.

The first line, of course, is security. He lives in the house. He always sleeps inside, and just goes out for a while during the day. I never leave him outside when I'm not home. So even when he's fenced in in the back yard, he's supervised pretty closely.

But aside from that, he's met most of the neighbors, so people know who he is, what his name is, where he lives, etc., and he knows them, too. So, if something were to happen and he got out, there's a very good chance that the first person who noticed would be a friend of his. Many of the local police know him and have played with him, too. He's an American Bulldog, a breed with a fairly bad reputation at times, so I recognize that there's a significant risk that people would be afraid of him based solely on the way he looks. And with cause. He is a big pit bull looking guy with a giant crocodile mouth. I could not blame anyone for being afraid of him if he were trotting up to them on the street.

I've also trained him, during our walks, to stop, sit, and look around for traffic before crossing the street. Now, I have no idea if he'd do that off-leash, because he doesn't go out off-leash, but I figure it doesn't hurt to try, at any rate.

I know my dog pretty well. I've seen him scared and injured and in all kinds of different situations, and he's never come close to behaving aggressively toward a person for any reason. I realize that doesn't mean it's impossible. It could still happen. And the fact that I am 99% sure he'd never hurt anyone intentionally doesn't mean everyone knows that, or even that anyone should BELIEVE me. Everyone thinks their dog is sweet and perfect.

It is my responsibility to control my dog, and I've done everything I can think of to do so.

If, despite my precautions, he were to get out, I could not blame someone for being afraid of him and behaving as though he were dangerous, though.