dangin

I don't know about the crime rate, but I don't think pregnancy either in or out of marriage has anything to do with morality. Also, the most recent stats I have seen indicate that secular alcohol abuse programs are far more efficacious than AA. And anyway you blather on, witout referencing your sources.

This is assertion, where are your stats and facts?

Mind you, you have not addressed the issue of "social living" among our species for millenia prior to your, or any religion. Unless you want to talk about the moral authority of the Mayan, Incan, Pre columbian and early european earth mother's, egyptian, or any other ancient religion. And claiming moral authorities existence in any of them undermines any argument that it must come from a religion still viable in today's world.

The fact is that "social order" is the precursor to any and all religions, because we were "social" before we had verbal language, and certainly before we had shamans.

And your mentioning of sexual morality is another fascinating example of religious morality's failings. No one cares about "sexual immorality" between consenting adults. That's why it is not legislated against, or at least not nearly as much as murder, home invasion, and assault.

What does this tell you? Adultery is one of the ten commandments, but it is not legislated against as much as the big three listed above. Going back to our social animal roots, no one cared about sex (it didn't disrupt the community as much as the big three). In fact in some primate cultures it keeps the peace.

If a female gives it up to most of the males, there will be confusion as to the paternity of the child, and all of the males have an interest in seeing the child thrive, or at least they don't want to risk killing it as it might be there own.

Then, we come to today and the big three are still the big three, and the most common god of this land's commandments are ignored unless they coincide with the natural social contract.

And obviously they were written (the commandments) after we were quite socialized as a species, so which came first, the morality of the common religion, or the "social contract" from which the human writers of the alleged god's words got their ideas?

Stephen T-B

Stephen “had a rebellious stage.”
No I didn’t. I was simply a naughty little boy - from time to time - and religion did not moderate my behaviour which was a great deal worse than that of my “non-religious” contemporaries.
Stephen “came back to the morality his parents taught him.”
Did I?
I became a more moral person after I accepted responsibility for my own actions, instead of passing it on to a fantasy entity.

And other points: “It fascinates me how so many here are jumping all over Christianity rather than the question at hand which I thought was 'religion' in general.”
I suggest that’s because most of us have first-hand experience of Christianity rather than, say, Islam or Judaism etc.
“Many atheists don't just have a lack of belief in God, they have hostility towards religion.”
I’m hostile because of the immense misery religious beliefs have caused mankind.
“It is a well-established fact through various studies by both religious and secular organisations that communities where people are involved in churches, synagogues or Mosques have lower crime rates, fewer out of wed pregnancies and more responsible parents.”
I don’t think these studies are very impressive if they conclude that the church-going USA has “ lower crime rates, fewer out of wed pregnancies and more responsible parents” than, say Norway or Sweden or Finland or the Netherlands where church-going is in steep decline. Church going in the former Soviet Union is climbing sharply, and it is huge in South Africa, and the crime rates in both are such that I wouldn’t care to live in either.

Religion is to do with the interaction between human beings and their gods; morality is a human concept, derived from the needs of a highly intelligent social animal to get along with his / her fellows. It creeps into religion when human beings give their gods moral attributes and feel it necessary to emulate them.
These same gods, however, are just as easily given cruel and barbaric attributes, which then permits their worshippers to behave in cruel and barbaric ways. I doubt, for instance, that you will argue that it was “moral” to torture and burn heretics at the stake. Yet those who did, believed that they were doing the will of a “moral” god.

brighid

Teenage pregnancy rates for 15-19 year olds

Wide variation is also seen in state teenage birthrates for 1996 (Table 4). The highest rates (70-75 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19) were found in Mississippi, Arkansas, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico; in the District of Columbia, 102 births occurred per 1,000 teenage women. The lowest rates (29-32 per 1,000) were in New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Minnesota and Massachusetts.

Rates were calculated as the number of pregnancies per 1000 females aged 15 to 17, 18 to 19, or 15 to 19 years. Because most pregnancies, births, and abortions (97% of live births, and 94% of legally induced abortions) among females younger than 15 years occurred among 13 to 14-year-olds (CDC, unpublished data, 2000; 6),

<a href="http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html" target="_blank">http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html</a>

In the United States pregnancy and birth rates among teenage girls are higher than in any other developing country (coincidentally we are also the most religious of the developing countries.)

<a href="http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2602/0004/2602000440/p1/article.jhtml" target="_blank">http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2602/0004/2602000440/p1/article.jhtml</a>

Sexual experience, sexual activity, and effective contraceptive use are important determinants of changes in pregnancy rates. The decline in pregnancy rates among females aged 15 to 19 years have been attributed to stable rates of sexual experience and activity among this group, and to increased use of condoms [4,8]. Increased use of long-acting hormonal methods introduced in the early 1990s also has been associated with the decline [9].

<a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/newsline/special/mmwr00/preg_rates.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/newsline/special/mmwr00/preg_rates.htm</a>

The Guttmacher Institute provides a more comprehensive look at teenage pregnancy in the US versus other developed (and more secular) countries like Britian, France and Sweden

<a href="http://www.guttmacher.org/media/moreprogress.html" target="_blank">http://www.guttmacher.org/media/moreprogress.html</a>

Brighid

dangin

But but but but. . . it just sounds so rightwhen I say jesus makes me not have sex.

Epitome

No time to tackle all the new stuff since my last post…

It was more than fair to ask me for the studies to back up my facts. This stuff is so well documented I thought it was common knowledge.

But for the skeptics, I pulled up some research that show religions positive effects on society, morality and crime rates.

NOTE: If you have hostility to religion the facts may be uncomfortable BUT you don't have to believe in God to acknowledge belief in religion does have positive effects on society.


This link was the best, but it's read only, so I couldn't paste a quote. But I highly recommend sifting through it if you're interested in the facts.

<a href="http://www.wecareamerica.org/OrganicReligion.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.wecareamerica.org/OrganicReligion.pdf</a>

****************

<a href="http://www.davidmyers.org/religion/stresshealth.html" target="_blank">http://www.davidmyers.org/religion/stresshealth.html</a>
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<a href="http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/releases/2001/Q3/crrucs.html" target="_blank">http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/releases/2001/Q3/crrucs.html</a>
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<a href="http://www.prisonministry.org/stats.htm" target="_blank">http://www.prisonministry.org/stats.htm</a>
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<a href="http://davidmyers.org/paradox/god&good.html" target="_blank">http://davidmyers.org/paradox/god&good.html</a>

What say you in the face of the facts?

Jamie:And what are we comparing to? The vast numbers of secular humanist communities?

Good question!!! You don't have any way to provide facts that secular humanism is even 'just as good' as religious communities. All you have is an assertion that it's 'probably' better based on your theories and antedotes. *L*

Epitome

Jamie_L

Epitome,

Thanks for the links. I'll read and respond as I have time. Also if I have time, I'll try to find links for my own wild-sounding claims. Maybe others here have some at their fingertips?

As for secular humanist communities. You are right again. I have no data to show humanist communities would be better than religious ones. And you have no data to show they'd be worse. Comparisons of strongly religious versus less-religious communities isn't really the same thing. There you've got two communities with the same set of moral values, only one is more committed than the other. Plus, there's the whole issue of correlation vs. causation.

Any community committed to supporting the community will do better than a community not committed to supporting the community.

Jamie

Epitome

Jamie_L:

Sounds good.

And good point here:
...you've got two communities with the same set of moral values, only one is more committed than the other. Plus, there's the whole issue of correlation vs. causation.

Typically secular humanists have the same moral values as well, at least from what I've surmised from reading up on it. (a great interest of mine is the shared morality between theists and non-theists)

I don't believe it's impossible for secular humanists/atheists to be moral. If a secular group came together for the purpose of forming a moral and supportive community, more power to them.

However, more often or not secularists seem to come together to focus their energies on the purpose of destroying religion. There is little to no regard to the positive effects of religion on society or acknowledgement that they don't yet know if they could do better.

More in response to the others later...

Epitome

brighid

Could you please provide some examples of this attempt to destroy society, as well as the failure of secularist to pay little or no regard to the "positive" aspects, etc. of religion.

Brighid

Epitome

dangin:but I don't think pregnancy either in or out of marriage has anything to do with morality

dangin:And your mentioning of sexual morality is another fascinating example of religious morality's failings. No one cares about "sexual
immorality" between consenting adults.

Are you saying your standard for morality is more about preference than actual consiquences for actions?

That's why it is not legislated against, or at least not nearly as much as murder, home invasion, and assault.

NOw are you saying that legislation determines morality?

Is going 10 miles over the speed limit more immoral than lying?

Epitome

emur

emur's comments:
Not in my experience as a Christian minister! With a few exceptions, people as Christians are the same people they were before, only now with a Christian veneer. The kind, compassionate Christians I know were that way before they became "born again" Christians. As Christians they are gracious and nonjudgemental, and while they take their faith seriously, they aren't mean spirited, calloused, or hurtful to others who believe differently, both inside and outside Christianity. Their God too is kind and compassionate, and reaches out to others in grace and not with law and judgement.

However, angry and bitter people bring that into their Christianity, and continue to act that way, only now with an eye to serving the Lord. With these people, things like righteousness and holiness are used as God-given reasons to be bigoted, hurtful, slanderous, and rigid. Their God is dripping with revenge and judgement, and they are eager to serve him in that tone. Tragically, many churches tolerate such people, and even consider them faithful in their "stand for the Lord".

emur's comments:
Funny thing with that verse about raising a child. If you actually look at the Hebrew, it says "Train a child according to his own way and when he is old he will not depart from it".

The point being that if a child is raised without the wise guidance of adults, the child will grow to be an immature adult. Whether you agree that this is true or not isn't the point here. I just wanted to point out that the verse isn't saying that a child raised in a Christian home and taught the ways of God will not depart from them.

Mel