sensate

Motorcycle Mama, I was wondering if you could name one person for Darwin's time and background who wouldn't be considered racist and/or sexist by today's standards. I look forward to your reply.

tgamble

Where did THAT come from? I was merely reffering to a reference in one of Darwin's works. I forget which one and am unable to find it. But I do remember it.

Here's another relevent quote

"The Voyage of the Beagle (reprinted by Doubleday & Co., 1962, pp. 496-498). Readers may ponder whether human cruelty is more likely to be the consequence of evolutionary thought or religious ideation.

On the 19th of August we finally left the shores of Brazil. I thank God, I shall never again visit a slave country. To this day, if I hear a distant scream, it recalls with painful vividness my feelings, when passing a house near Pernambuco, I heard the most pitiable moans, and could not but suspect that some poor slave was being tortured, yet knew that I was as powerless as a child even to remonstrate. I suspected that these moans were from a tortured slave, for I was told that this was the case in another instance. Near Rio de Janeiro I lived opposite to an old lady, who kept screws to crush the fingers of her female slaves. I have staid in a house where a young household mulatto, daily and hourly, was reviled, beaten, and persecuted enough to break the spirit of the lowest animal. I have seen a little boy, six or seven years old, struck thrice with a horsewhip (before I could interfere) on his naked head, for having handed me a glass of water not quite clean; I saw his father tremble at a mere glance from his master’s eye. These latter cruelties were witnessed by me in a Spanish colony, in which it has always been said, that slaves are better treated than by the Portuguese, English, or other European nations. I have seen at Rio de Janeiro a powerful negro afraid to ward off a blow directed, as he thought, at his face. I was present when a kind-hearted man was on the point of separating for ever the men, women and little children of a large number of families who had long lived together. I will not even allude to the many heart-sickening atrocities which I authentically heard of; - nor would I have mentioned the above revolting details, had I not met with several people, so blinded by the constitutional gaiety of the negro, as to speak of slavery as a tolerable evil. Such people have generally visited the houses of the upper classes, where the domestic slaves are usually well treated; and they have not, like myself, lived amongst the lower classes. Such enquirers will ask slaves about their condition; they forget that the slave must indeed be dull, who does not calculate on the chance of his answer reaching his master’s ears.

It is argued that self-interest will prevent excessive cruelty; as if self-interest protected our domestic animals, which are far less likely than degraded slaves, to stir up the rage of their savage masters. It is an argument long since protested against with noble feelings, and strikingly exemplified, by the ever illustrious Humboldt. It is often attempted to palliate slavery by comparing the state of slaves with our poorer countrymen: if the misery of our poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin; but how this bears on slavery, I cannot see; as well might the use of the thumbscrew be defended in one land, by showing that men in another land suffer from some dreadful disease. Those who look tenderly at the slave-owner and with cold heart at the slave, never seem to put themselves into the position of the latter; - what a cheerless prospect, with not even a hope of change! Picture to yourself the chance, ever hanging over you, of your wife and your little children - those objects which nature urges even the slave to call his own - being torn from you and sold like beast to the first bidder! And these deeds are done and palliated by men, who profess to love their neighbors as themselves, who believe in God, and pray that his Will be done on earth! It makes one’s blood boil, yet heart tremble, to think that we Englishmen and our American descendants, with their boastful cry of liberty, have been and are so guilty: but it is consolation to reflect, that we at least have made a greater sacrifice, than ever made by any nation, to expiate our sin."

"I have watched how steadily the general feeling, as shown at elections,
has been rising against Slavery. What a proud thing for England, if she is
the first European nation which utterly abolish is it. I was told before
leaving England, that after living in slave countries: all my options would
be altered; the only alteration I am aware of is forming a much higher
estimate of the Negros character. It is impossible to see a negro & not
feel kindly toward him; such cheerful, open honest expressions & such fine
muscular bodies; I never saw any of the diminutive Portuguese with their
murderous countenances, without almost wishing for Brazil to follow the
example of Haiti; & considering the enormous healthy looking black
population, it will be wonderful if at some future day it does not take
place." -- Charles Darwin to Catherine Darwin (May 22 - July 14 1833) The
Correspondence of Charles Darwin Vol. 1 1821-1836 (1985), pp. 312-313

"While staying at this estate, I was very nearly being an eye-witness to
one of those atrocious acts which can only take place in a slave country.
Owing to a quarrel and a lawsuit, the owner was on the point of taking all
the women and children from the male slaves, and selling them separately at
the public auction at Rio. Interest, and not any feeling of compassion,
prevented this act. Indeed, I do not believe the inhumanity of separating
thirty families, who had lived together for many years, even occurred to
the owner. Yet I will pledge myself, that in humanity and good feeling he
was superior to the common run of men. It may be said there exists no limit
to the blindness of interest and selfish habit. I may mention one very
trifling anecdote, which at the time struck me more forcibly than any story
of cruelty. I was crossing a ferry with a negro, who was uncommonly stupid.
In endeavouring to make him understand, I talked loud, and made signs, in
doing which I passed my hand near his face. He, I suppose, thought I was in
a passion, and was going to strike him; for instantly, with a frightened
look and half-shut eyes, he dropped his hands. I shall never forget my
feelings of surprise, disgust, and shame, at seeing a great powerful man
afraid even to ward off a blow, directed, as he thought, at his face. This
man had been trained to a degradation lower than the slavery of the most
helpless animal." -- Charles Darwin, Voyage of the Beagle (1839), Chapter
II

<a href="http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200002/0096.html" target="_blank">http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200002/0096.html</a>

"On the 19th of August we finally left the shores of Brazil. I thank God, I shall never again visit a slave-country. To this day, if I hear a distant scream, it recalls with painful vividness my feelings, when passing a house near Pernambuco, I heard the most pitiable moans, and could not but suspect that some poor slave was being tortured, yet knew that I was as powerless as a child even to remonstrate. I suspected that these moans were from a tortured slave, for I was told that this was the case in another instance. Near Rio de Janeiro I lived opposite to an old lady, who kept screws to crush the fingers of her female slaves. I have stayed in a house where a young household mulatto, daily and hourly, was reviled, beaten, and persecuted enough to break the spirit of the lowest animal. I have seen a little boy, six or seven years old, struck thrice with a horse-whip (before I could interfere) on his naked head, for having handed me a glass of water not quite clean; I saw his father tremble at a mere glance from his master's eye. These latter cruelties were witnessed by me in a Spanish colony, in which it has always been said, that slaves are better treated than by the Portuguese, English, or other European nations. I have seen at Rio de Janeiro a powerful negro afraid to ward off a blow directed, as he thought, at his face. I was present when a kind-hearted man was on the point of separating forever the men, women, and little children of a large number of families who had long lived together. I will not even allude to the many heart-sickening atrocities which I authentically heard of; -- nor would I have mentioned the above revolting details, had I not met with several people, so blinded by the constitutional gaiety of the negro as to speak of slavery as a tolerable evil. Such people have generally visited at the houses of the upper classes, where the domestic slaves are usually well treated, and they have not, like myself, lived amongst the lower classes. Such inquirers will ask slaves about their condition; they forget that the slave must indeed be dull, who does not calculate on the chance of his answer reaching his master's ears.

It is argued that self-interest will prevent excessive cruelty; as if self-interest protected our domestic animals, which are far less likely than degraded slaves, to stir up the rage of their savage masters. It is an argument long since protested against with noble feeling, and strikingly exemplified, by the ever-illustrious Humboldt. It is often attempted to palliate slavery by comparing the state of slaves with our poorer countrymen: if the misery of our poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin; but how this bears on slavery, I cannot see; as well might the use of the thumb-screw be defended in one land, by showing that men in another land suffered from some dreadful disease. Those who look tenderly at the slave owner, and with a cold heart at the slave, never seem to put themselves into the position of the latter; what a cheerless prospect, with not even a hope of change! picture to yourself the chance, ever hanging over you, of your wife and your little children -- those objects which nature urges even the slave to call his own -- being torn from you and sold like beasts to the first bidder! And these deeds are done and palliated by men, who profess to love their neighbours as themselves, who believe in God, and pray that his Will be done on earth! It makes one's blood boil, yet heart tremble, to think that we Englishmen and our American descendants, with their boastful cry of liberty, have been and are so guilty: but it is a consolation to reflect, that we at least have made a greater sacrifice, than ever made by any nation, to expiate our sin."
<a href="http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-voyage-of-the-beagle/chapter-21.html" target="_blank">http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-voyage-of-the-beagle/chapter-21.html</a>

pz

That he dated a black woman? Not only is the whole concept of 'dating' an anachronism, but despite his relative liberality, it is unlikely to the extreme that an upper class Victorian gentleman would have any kind of romantic liaison with a black woman.

Doubting Didymus

Unless it was not public, of course.

Anything can happen in the victorian private life.

pz

If it was not public, how did we learn about it?

If Darwin had 'dated' a black woman, would he have published the fact?

Blinn

Ewwweehheeww... Now that's just icky... MM has been misleading us all this time?

Doubting Didymus

'Twas a small joke, pz. A dig at arguments from ignorance.

KC

I think the idea of him dating a black woman comes from a misinterpretation of Darwin's use of the term 'intimate'. Wasn't the word used as the equivalent of 'acquainted' in Darwin's time?

Cheers,

KC

Skydancer

More like 'friends'. Or as a verb, to inform someone of something confidentially.

Motorcycle Mama

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pz:
[QB]

pz

Silly, maybe, wrong, good question.

Take a look at The Origin of Species. Darwin himself says that Patrick Matthew came up with the same theory as he and Wallace in 1831. Also read Himmelfarb, G. Darwin and the Darwinian Revolution for an evalution of Darwin's ideas. Also, Loren Eisley in Darwin's Mysterious Mr. X argues that Darwin took his ideas from another British Naturalist, name now forgotten.
MM