Bubba

Getting a little bit off topic here, but I have a question for both pz and Starboy.

Do you really think religion will wane, even with the rise in Islamic fundamentalism and the growth of Christianity outside of the Unived States?

Most of the people I know, Christian, Hindu, Athiest or whatever tend to see religion on kind of a big upswing.

Also, do you think the growth of organizations like AIG outside of the U.S. will slow down soon? These people put bunches of money into converting people to YEC in places where there is no public education and no way for people to know better.


BTW, I'm doing fine Starboy. GLAD to see you back.

Bubba

pz

It could go either way.

If science and education continue to progress, if we aren't demolished by war or disease or other disaster, yes, religion will someday go away.

It's just as possible, though, for irrationality to overcome everything else, and the world to sink into another dark age. Then religion will rule.

I don't see any way for religion to grow unless there is an accompanying secular stagnation or decline.

Starboy

Bubba,

I think you have to look at the leaders not the followers. In societies where knowledge and rational thinking are important, it is hard to see how people can avoid seeing problems with religion. Look at the trends reported by adherents.com, etc. for North America and Canada.

<a href="http://www.gem-werc.org/mmrc/mmrc9805.htm" target="_blank">http://www.gem-werc.org/mmrc/mmrc9805.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.mightofchrist.com/Politics/Political%20Arena.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mightofchrist.com/Politics/Political%20Arena.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.gem-werc.org/gd/wct-1-2.pdf" target="_blank">World Christian Trends</a>

<a href="http://www.gem-werc.org/gd/gd23.pdf" target="_blank">Geopolitical Religious blocks</a>


Of course I do not know how much credence one can give these figures. As Mark Twain once said, “There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics”.

Even if non-theism is on the rise, without a good replacement, religion may hang around for a long time. I think that people do require guidance on how to live life well. What is needed is a satisfactory ethos based on the natural instead of the supernatural. For the uneducated and irrational, perhaps they do need the boogieman and a fairy godfather to keep them in line. But, IMO if the world does get better educated and more industrialized over time, people are going to think such fairy tales are for children.

Starboy

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Albion

I think it's interesting in creation-evolution debates to see how the IDists (who on the whole accept evolution and certainly accept an ole Earth) stay quiet while the YECs are banging on about "The Bible says six days!" I've also seen Christians who have said that literal Genesis isn't a primary matter of salvation stay very quiet when the YECs start the "If Adam and Eve aren't literally true, then Jesus didn't die for our sins" line. I've sometimes asked them why they stayed silent, and the waffling reply led me to believe that their opinion is sort of that, well, these zealots might be a bit mistaken about the details, but after all they're Christians (unlike the evolution supporters) and they're very fervent and committed Christians, and we have to respect that etc etc. I just wonder if, when these strident extremists start labelling liberal Christians as being not TRUE Christians, the liberals might, at some deep level, be agreeing with them.

Peter Soderqvist

I cannot believe that creationism is a rife in USA, because close to none are talking about god here in Sweden, except people belonging to sects. The feeling I get from reading some part of the bible is that; it is mythology, or simply a fairy tale, and I don't understand how someone can believe that the bible is an authentic account. What is your personal experience from friends, coworkers, relatives, etc, do they really believe in creationism, that the bible is the inerrant word of god, or something like that?

Regarding fervent, and committed Christians!
I think it is the same with Moslems and others, that the moderate believers doesn't say anything, or close to nothing about when the fundamentalists
exert terror, and violates human rights, because they are so strong in their belief, they are doing it for god, but the infidels have done nothing for god!
Of course, there are exceptions to the rule too!

To believe things without verification is the virus of the mind!

The Ecce homo gallery online can give you a good account of how moderate, tolerant, and flexible the mainstreamers of Christianity here are, and the fundamentalists are not!

[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Soderqvist ]</p>

RufusAtticus

Go read some modern theology, which tends to restrict itself to explaining spiratural matters and not the natural world.

<a href="http://www.umc.org/abouttheumc/beliefs/" target="_blank">Browse</a> the United Methodist Church's belief statements for an idea of progressive theology.

pz

That's exactly the problem with religion, though. There is nothing but the natural world, so they've restricted themselves to explaining something that doesn't exist.

I see that as a growing difficulty for the religious point of view.

Starboy

Rufus, I do not doubt you, but what you describe is purely in the mind. When it gets to that point, why is it any more relevant than any other viewpoint? Hasn't the world had enough of such nonsense? We really do need guidance on how to live life well, but looking for answers based on modes of thinking and understanding from two thousand years ago is not IMO how it should be done.

Good News Flash, there is a new way for understanding our surroundings..... It is called science. We don't have to understand things in terms of souls, sin, good, evil, god, angels or any of that other nonsense from another era any more.

Starboy

Shadownought

Yes indeed. I know a lot of people who assert that evolution is false, and Biblical creation is the only truth. I may be wrong, but I believe there are STILL arguments in court in some states concerning the teaching of evolution in schools.

Principia

Unfortunately, I think current science can only take us so far in our understanding of the world. I don't think we should advocate substituting one incomplete model of the world with another. For instance, does science actually explain good and evil? morality? metaphysics? I guess it all depends on what you call science and not-science.