Radorth

No it isn't, and that's why you can't say how he would do it. You're just making pedantic assertions that you can't back up with a better way for him to do things.

Of course he has limits, placed by himself. He has to have limits or he would have no integrity, nor would we be able to say we had a free will. I've had deeper discussions than you want to have about this, with people who actually tried to come up with a better way, and their plans all involved limiting free will.

When asked, it was usually the free will of somebody else they thought God should arrest, not theirs. Heh. How ironic. God should stop bad people, according to the atheists definition only.

"What if he thinks abortion is bad? Should he close the clinics?"

"No."

"What if he stops child molestors, but takes away your beer?"

"No thanks."

Rad

Dr Rick

A thing is possible unless proven otherwise.

That I cannot describe or maybe even conceive of the ways that free-will could exist without suffering does not mean that it is logically impossible for it to; it just confirms that I am not omniscient. A christian cannot describe how heaven was made, but that does not mean that it would be logically impossible to make heaven. There are reasons to believe that heaven was never made, but it's not a logical impossibility. There may be reasons to allow evil to exist with free-will, but you haven't made a case that it must or that it would be logically impossible for the latter to exist without the former.


Then he is not omnipotent.

Perhaps those other people weren't omniscient, either.

Atheists don't believe in gods, so they can't and don't think they should stop anybody.

Rick

Ronin

Of course, we are all just friendly human beings with various interests...likes and dislikes...idiosyncrasies...making our way through life.

I would have never considered to identifiy myself as a strong atheist until the day I merely refuted the nonsensical assertions made by one who claimed membership in 'Christianity'...at that point, my world became divided into two camps, the real/natural vs the mythical/supernatural ~ so, here I am.

Despite my best efforts to return to those innocent days of simplicity, I fail, because the unnecessary assertions continue unabated in direct conflict with the senses.

So, you see, it was the assertion (in this case, 'Christianity') that brought discord to peaceful personal understanding ~ where there was inner peace, love and progress, there is now chaos.

In the beginning there was silence...then came the word...and look at all it has wrought.

My plea is only for all to live life in goodness ~ however each understands life to be.

That this plea will fall on deaf ears, I have no doubt.

There are far too many who would prefer to worship the finger pointing the way rather than take the difficult path of quiet diligence.

Gurdur

heh, on this point take a look at what is happening here.
Your input there, Ronin, Dr. Rick, might well be in order ?

HelenM

I have a book by Pope John Paul II (Agenda For The Third Millenium) which says:

As to the eternal salvation of those who do not believe (sceptics, agnostics, atheists and people who are actually against God) and of those who do believe but not as we do, this must of course be entirely entrusted to the justice and goodness of the Most High.

Are you saying that Kally's friends, if practising Catholics, would disagree with the Pope?

Helen

Mad Kally

Jesus said: "Judge not, lest you be judged. With what measure you mete, it will be measured back to you." Dose that fit in with your vast and profound knowledge? Probably not since you're one of those nice, loving xians.

I'm a strong atheist. How ridicuous of you to talk about a magical, invisible place called heaven...

agapeo

No, I prefer the "Fox Trot".

If I offered to end their suffering and they refused that offer what would you suggest?
Was there a suggestion somewhere in that answer? Or wishful thinking.

I think what you're asking though is: Should billions of people be held guilty for the act of two?
So you think. Is what you think superior to what I think? If so, explain what makes it superior.
You're assuming that the children are not fully cognizant of the consequences of their actions. If you're going to compare my hypothetical with this you have to keep it at least relative to each other. But since I myself didn't indicate the two people would be fully cognizant then your comparison is fair enuf. Now try doing it over with this element added to the hypothetical.
Then I'd say they were responsible for it's misuse. Your point?

Obviously my response to the OP indicates that I would allow billions of people to suffer for the actions of two if the consequences of that action filtered down to them. I see no suggestions forthcoming that would provide a solution. Instead I see only outrage that billions of people are suffering. Complain if you must – but unless you have a solution to the problem (when those who suffer refuse help) then I think you're blowing "hot air". I gave a possible solution to the problem – a cure for the cancer. What was your solution for the children having access to the gasoline and matches? Don't allow them access to them?

That's an interesting answer! But it doesn't say much.

Oh and btw – your analogy assumes that the person giving the warning is constantly present with the children. In which case having access to a fire extinguisher and choosing not to use it would (I agree) be immoral. But just on the flip-side of your analogy it could also be assumed that the children were cognizant of what a fire extinguisher was used for and yet deliberately chose not to use it. Will someone help me remove this straw from my mouth? :rolleyes

Dr Rick

If it was up to me, I would not let other people suffer for the actions of two; in fact, I wouldn't let anyone suffer if I had the ability to make it so.

What's yours?

Rick

Amos

Interesting Helen but I'll guarantee you that Kally's friends did not have that book. In fact they might not even know who the Pope is these days and still be considdered good Catholics.

Dr Rick

{{Hedwig}}

I'll take a look..later; it's gonna' be a powder day and I need to finish my rounds and get to the slopes.

Rick