Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tom Sawyer · 09-03-2002, 02:12 PM

I personally have no problem with churches, etc getting taxpayer money to use to help out on shelters and soup kitchens and the like.

However, if they want to compete for those tax dollars with non-religious charities, they should pay property taxes, etc, just like the non-religious charities do. Otherwise, they're just double-dipping into the taxpayer well and creating an unlevel playing field.

While this may sound like an odd argument to use in reference to charities, I can just see someone five or ten years down the line publishing a study about how much more efficient these religious organizations are about handling the grant money (since they don't have any tax bills to worry about) let's make an amendment to that bill to make them the preferential recipients of the money and, oh ya, take out that part about them not being aloud to use the money to preach while we're at it.

Maybe I'm just too much of a conspiracy theorist, but that's what I worry about with this law.

ManM · 09-04-2002, 06:10 AM

god-free-pen,

Quote:

Why in the hell should a bunch of holy pedophiles,
greedy, crooked, millionaire TV evangelists, be exempted from property taxes?

Congress shall make no law...

crazyfingers · 09-04-2002, 08:18 AM

Here is another story from the Globe today.

<a href="http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/247/nation/Agencies_move_to_aid_faith_groups+.shtml" target="_blank">Agencies move to aid faith groups</a>

Quote:

WASHINGTON - Working to implement President Bush's stalled ''faith-based initiative,'' five Cabinet agencies are writing rules into federal law that Congress has balked at. The rules will help churches and other religious groups obtain millions of federal social service dollars with few strings attached.

At the Department of Health and Human Services, officials will let churches, synagogues, and mosques use federal money for programs infused with religion and consider religion in hiring and firing workers.

* Snip *

I really hate George Bush.

crazyfingers · 09-04-2002, 09:02 AM

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33368-2002Sep3.html" target="_blank">Bush Admin. Rewriting Charity Rules </a>

More detail than is in the Globe story above.

Toto · 09-04-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

It all makes for a "giant faith-based slush fund," Lynn said. The program was never supposed to be funding individual churches, he said. "I think that's a real scandal."

This has always been about funneling tax money to religious entrpreneurs.

Any bets on how long before the first financial scandal? The first minister who raids the bank account and runs off to Tahiti with the church secretary?

nogods4me · 09-04-2002, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
god-free-pen,

Congress shall make no law...

once again you miss the point entirely, are you really that dense.
by providing tax exemptions to religions the government is providing them with a benefit not bestowed upon the rest of the populace, it is, in fact helping to "establish" religion by giving them financial aid

ManM · 09-04-2002, 09:51 AM

nogods4me,
Property taxes would be done through law, yes? Are you going to tell me that 'Congress shall make no law...' doesn't really mean that Congress shall make no law?

brighid · 09-04-2002, 10:31 AM

I have no problem with churches continuing to not pay taxes, but that means they shall get NO government help period. Even without the �Faith Based Intiative� Ministry crap religious organizations enjoy the benefits of tax $$, and tax exemptions. Which no other secular institutions benefit from, so in order to stop being a bunch of hypocrites they either need to start paying taxes in order to receive government assistance, OR stop accepting government help or $$ in any way. I vote for the later and in that case they also need to keep their opinions and campaign funding to themselves as well.

Brighid

And yes Congress shall make no law... too bad our President doesn't know the Constitution from a whole in the ground.

nogods4me · 09-04-2002, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
nogods4me,
Property taxes would be done through law, yes? Are you going to tell me that 'Congress shall make no law...' doesn't really mean that Congress shall make no law?

continue reading the amendment ManM, it concerns establishment of a religion(s), by exempting religions (churches and their property) from the taxes they have created a special class for religions only, thereby "establishing" a religion. other non-profits are required to go thru a very rigorous screening procedure and must keep documentation concerning a great many things. churches are exempted from most of those regulations as well. in fact in some areas churches have exempted themselves from such things as zoning laws. preferential treatment for churches is an explicit approval of that church by the government and thus violates the 1st.

ManM · 09-04-2002, 11:40 AM

brighid,

Quote:

I have no problem with churches continuing to not pay taxes, but that means they shall get NO government help period.

That sounds acceptable. Would you support giving people the choice to pay taxes to support a government charity or allowing them to use that money to fund a church charity? The government would not be paying the churches anything, but rather would be giving people the choice of what they wanted their money to support.

Quote:

And yes Congress shall make no law... too bad our President doesn't know the Constitution from a whole in the ground.

Agreed.

nogods4me,

Quote:

...by exempting religions (churches and their property) from the taxes they have created a special class for religions only, thereby "establishing" a religion.

And that is utter nonsense. They have established the religion of religion? Could you please explain to me exactly what the religion of religion is? The establishment clause seeks to prevent the case where one religion persecutes everyone else. Is there any persecution going on here? Looks to me like all of the churches are being treated the same.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: ManM ]

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09-03-2002, 02:12 PM	#11
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	I personally have no problem with churches, etc getting taxpayer money to use to help out on shelters and soup kitchens and the like. However, if they want to compete for those tax dollars with non-religious charities, they should pay property taxes, etc, just like the non-religious charities do. Otherwise, they're just double-dipping into the taxpayer well and creating an unlevel playing field. While this may sound like an odd argument to use in reference to charities, I can just see someone five or ten years down the line publishing a study about how much more efficient these religious organizations are about handling the grant money (since they don't have any tax bills to worry about) let's make an amendment to that bill to make them the preferential recipients of the money and, oh ya, take out that part about them not being aloud to use the money to preach while we're at it. Maybe I'm just too much of a conspiracy theorist, but that's what I worry about with this law.

09-04-2002, 09:02 AM	#14
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33368-2002Sep3.html" target="_blank">Bush Admin. Rewriting Charity Rules </a> More detail than is in the Globe story above.

09-04-2002, 09:51 AM	#17
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	nogods4me, Property taxes would be done through law, yes? Are you going to tell me that 'Congress shall make no law...' doesn't really mean that Congress shall make no law?

09-04-2002, 10:31 AM	#18
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	I have no problem with churches continuing to not pay taxes, but that means they shall get NO government help period. Even without the �Faith Based Intiative� Ministry crap religious organizations enjoy the benefits of tax $$, and tax exemptions. Which no other secular institutions benefit from, so in order to stop being a bunch of hypocrites they either need to start paying taxes in order to receive government assistance, OR stop accepting government help or $$ in any way. I vote for the later and in that case they also need to keep their opinions and campaign funding to themselves as well. Brighid And yes Congress shall make no law... too bad our President doesn't know the Constitution from a whole in the ground.

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