Jackalope

The drag queens here in the San Francisco area have finally provided an alternative to those of us who don't want to support the Salvation Army and St. Vincents: it's a chain called "Out of the Closet." Their store here in Berkeley is painted bright, screaming pink. A percentage of the profits goes to the local AIDS foundation, so I can get behind them 100%. And they have much cooler secondhand junk than the SallyAnn does anyway.

villainess

That sounds incredibly cool. If I were on the fun coast I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Last time I was in Philly I found the most awesome thrift store that supports a local animal shelter, I felt pretty good about supporting that one. Got a really excellent pair of boots there for three dollars. Unfortunately, the name has completely fled from my skull.

Rumor has it that Paul Glover (Mr. Ithaca Hours) is trying to establish a permanent thrift store here based on the Student Recycling Project idea - currently the SRP is a yearly rummage sale based on all the worldly possessions student's can't/ don't want to take home with them and would therefore throw out. The proceeds benefit a rotating cast of secular and benignly-religious charities and the stuff often includes very interesting items if you have the patience to shuffle through a lot of hot plates, highlighter-raddled textbooks, and Abercrombie & Fitch.

the_villainess

Shake

Well, I'd also heard that the primary motivation was religious, but here's a quote from that link:I've added the bold to show their out for saying it's not just religiously motivated.

The food is pretty good, though.

Ultimate Atheist

I have no problem with boycotting Christian-owned companies. They have no problem telling us to stop buying oil that comes from the middle east or to stop buying Pepsi because of the labels that they had on their bottles briefly that said "One Nation...Indivisible". They have no problem with discriminating against others.

Why should we feel guilty discriminating against them? I'm not morally obligated to support those types of businesses that flaunt their Christianity like its a virtue. Lots of businesses flaunt it like its going to get them more business. It turns me off and they lose my business and I don't think twice about it.

Stabby-

Ultimate-



And discrimination is exactly what you are proposing.
"Don't do business with them because they are different." Is that going to be the battle cry of the Atheist?

Us vs. Them thinking is infectious, harmful and a powerful tool of manipulation. Hate is a simple emotion. Doesn't secular humanism strive for something better, not just the status quo in a different package?

If the product they are offering is tied to a political belief, or moral position-- then, just by the simple rules of the free market-- people that have differing political beliefs-- will not make such purchases.

But to say that every aspect of another's life is corrupted by what they are and what they believe-- that is the path of the intolerant. And yes, the examples you provided-- are samples of intolerance. Which should be decried, not mimicked.

What if you found your favorite restaurant was owned and operated by conservative Christians? Yet they took reasonable efforts to make their restaurant neutral and inviting. Would you not go to that restaurant, just to spite them, to get even, to economically harm them?

If they do flaunt it, if lets say they have a big picture of Jesus chowing down on their patented onion blossom treat-- now you have a reason not to go-- because their marketing strategy doesn't appeal to you.

Your acts should reflect your preference.
Your acts should never be punitive-- just because you want to punish those that are different than you.

Stabby-----------

Ultimate Atheist

Stabby, I think you're reading a bit too much into what I said. Don't let the name fool you. I'm not the anti-christ.

I don't hate Christians. I also don't go out of my way to avoid Christian owned businesses. I even eat at Chic-fil-a from time to time. They don't flaunt it like its going to pull in more business. I do however avoid companies that have Jesus fish in their logos or some wording that flaunts that they are Christians.

Sometimes tolerance goes to far. Will you still be tolerant if the Christians that control our government more and more as time goes on decide to start hunting down and executing non-christians? It could happen. I don't think we have anything to worry about in the near future but it could very well happen.

KitKit

which is exactly why (even if i did eat fast food) i wouldn't buy anything at chick-fil-a. they are constantly giving kids religious crap in their kid meals. that is just WRONG! what about the kids who don't believe or believe in something different. they open their kid meal, peer inside to see what cool treat they got & what do they see? "oh boy mommy, look, a cassette tape of church stories." very nice.

Ultimate Atheist

A secular business that did that sort of thing would be put out of business within days by crying fundies. But we should just watch them do it and know in our hearts that we're better people because we're tolerant of anything and everything. Let them push their religion down our kids throats in school and tolerate it. Let them make laws outlawing what consenting adults decide to do in their own homes and tolerate it. Let them decide what organizations get taxed and what organizations get shut down and tolerate it. Tolerate everything and one day you'll be forced to tolerate them taking away everything you have or worse, killing you. I'm not saying that they should be fought and wiped out of existence. That's crazy and if you think that's what I meant you're blowing things out of proportion. But there's no reason I should feel obligated to support their businesses just for the sake of tolerance.

Stabby-

Ultimate-

The critical question to ask is: are your acts punitive or preferential.

From what I've heard, your thinking is clear and perfectly reasonable. Every time you've given examples of a desire not to shop at a place, it is because of preference. As long as they are not packaging religion with their product-- you've expressed an economic willingness, and reasonable tolerance.

Yet, such a distinction is not obvious. A quick read of your post, makes you sound like an angry atheist out to "get" them darned Christians.

kitkit-



Tolerance is a tricky thing. My instinct is to error on the side of over-tolerance.
I don't think any "Christian control of the government" will ever be confused as a time for tolerance. The constitution is a pretty good test for such acts.

I understand that the political power of the Christian right is very disturbing. But turn a critical eye to your own post. I think you've shifted what it means to tolerate in this context.

How about not "allowing" injustice, and tolerating those that you differ with, in order to realize long term goals.

Here, by allowing these non-constitutional acts--we would be tolerating anything for any purpose, except the act of tolerance itself. We would be abandoning our values.

Humanists, secularists and atheists have the critical thinking skills to see long-term benefits from short-term losses.

If we try to understand tolerance within this context, I don't think we'll have any trouble determining what to tolerate and what not to allow.

Stabby----------

Ultimate Atheist

My statement was meant to be an overstatement just to show that tolerance isn't always called for. You have to draw the line somewhere. That point really has nothing to do with the original post. I merely said those things because it appeared to me that you were saying you should be tolerant at all costs. In some cases you should try to be as tolerant as possible.

I think it comes down to what you're being tolerant or intolerant of. I think it would be horrible to decide not to shop somewhere because its owned by black people or because its owned by women. But with religion its a bit different. Most Christians think they're better than us. They think they're right and we're misguided. The same ones can't even properly quote their own Bible. The book they're supposed to live and die by. I've even been told by someone that didn't know that I'm an atheist that anyone that isn't a Christian deserves to die. The fact that his head is still intact with his body is the only tolerance that he got or deserves from me.

I just hate it when people go overboard with things such as tolerance or political correctness and that's the way some of your statements seemed to me. Maybe we both just misunderstood each other.

I don't hate anyone for their religious beliefs but I wont support the businesses that wave a Bible in my face when I get to the register. I'll continue to eat at places like Chic-fil-a as long as they don't start putting Bibles in their kid's meals because unless someone tells you that they're owned by a christian organization you would never know.