Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 03-24-2003, 11:43 PM

Hey I had a random question for whoever wants to answer...

I've been discussing genetic mutations at E/C with some theists, and I received the answer that "mutations are from the fall" or "from man's sin." So my question is - if mutation and disease were sent by God to punish our immoral butts, than is it immoral for us to try and cure them?

scigirl

echidna · 03-25-2003, 12:00 AM

Presumably yes, just as some interpretations of Karma would imply that it's immoral to assist someone who has been born "to learn the lesson of hardship".

Shake · 03-25-2003, 05:02 AM

Well, I don't agree with the premise, but for the sake of argument, I'd have to agree with echidna.

These sound like some liberal theists, accepting evolution, even if it is part of "Gawd's Plan" (TM).

But to get back on-topic, I don't see how they could see it as punishment. Unless they're only fixated on "bad" mutations. The way I understand it, not all mutations have a negative effect on a species, and actually, more often than not they're positive. The other exception I could see them arguing is the random mutation in one (or just a few) individuals. Is this more in line with what they're talking about?

pz · 03-25-2003, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl
So my question is - if mutation and disease were sent by God to punish our immoral butts, than is it immoral for us to try and cure them?

Yes. And even more -- you know those babies who are born with horrible birth defects? They deserve them.

BibleBelted · 03-25-2003, 11:25 AM

An orthodox jew once told me that our purpose in serving god was to "repair the world." I assume he meant fix the damage created by Adam's sin so, at least in their theology, there would be nothing wrong with treating diseases and suffering.

Now I would hate for some xian fundy to meditate on this too long though (fat chance of that, eh?) because they might start picketing hospitals or something.

Oh wait, I forgot. God gave us doctors.

Arvel Joffi · 03-25-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pz
Yes. And even more -- you know those babies who are born with horrible birth defects? They deserve them.

Oh yeah. pz is totally right. I've always said that any of those kids born with hearts outisde of their chests and with malformed limbs and crapped out immune systems with no hope of a normal, productive life since they're dead at the age of four after lingering around in hospitals for the majority of their short lives just weren't paying attention when they read Bible.

Sinners. God - damned sinners. All of 'em.

Doubting Didymus · 03-25-2003, 02:44 PM

If god had meant us to fly, he'd never have given us the train.

If god had meant us to have horrible illness, he'd never have invented medicine.

(I suppose if god had meant me to follow the bible, he'd never have given me a brain)

The Lone Ranger · 03-25-2003, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl

So my question is - if mutation and disease were sent by God to punish our immoral butts, than is it immoral for us to try and cure them?

I seem to recall reading that when physicians first started using drugs to ease the pain of childbirth, many religious leaders were outraged. Apparently, God had decreed that women are supposed to suffer during childbirth, due to Eve's unpardonable sin of eating some fruit. Accordingly, to use drugs to ameliorate the pain of childbirth was to oppose the will of God.

Cheers,

Michael

trientalis · 03-25-2003, 05:45 PM

Ah yes. Gen. III, v. 16 "...in pain thou shalt bring forth children" (Pentateuch, J. H. Hertz, ed.)

Bollocks. If and when my time comes, bring on the epidural.

B. H. Manners · 03-25-2003, 05:54 PM

If my wife was pregnant I'd want her to take pain killer as well.

A woman friend of mine just had a baby, and she said the closest thing she can comapre giving birth to is having a broken leg set and that is not even close. I have had a broken leg set without pain killer, and I'l sure as hell never do that again!

03-24-2003, 11:43 PM	#1
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	If genetic mutations are from the fall. . . Hey I had a random question for whoever wants to answer... I've been discussing genetic mutations at E/C with some theists, and I received the answer that "mutations are from the fall" or "from man's sin." So my question is - if mutation and disease were sent by God to punish our immoral butts, than is it immoral for us to try and cure them? scigirl

03-25-2003, 05:45 PM	#9
trientalis Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Washington state Posts: 848	biblical basis for unrelieved suffering in childbirth Ah yes. Gen. III, v. 16 "...in pain thou shalt bring forth children" (Pentateuch, J. H. Hertz, ed.) Bollocks. If and when my time comes, bring on the epidural.

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03-25-2003, 12:00 AM	#2
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Presumably yes, just as some interpretations of Karma would imply that it's immoral to assist someone who has been born "to learn the lesson of hardship".

03-25-2003, 05:02 AM	#3
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Well, I don't agree with the premise, but for the sake of argument, I'd have to agree with echidna. These sound like some liberal theists, accepting evolution, even if it is part of "Gawd's Plan" (TM). But to get back on-topic, I don't see how they could see it as punishment. Unless they're only fixated on "bad" mutations. The way I understand it, not all mutations have a negative effect on a species, and actually, more often than not they're positive. The other exception I could see them arguing is the random mutation in one (or just a few) individuals. Is this more in line with what they're talking about?

03-25-2003, 11:25 AM	#5
BibleBelted Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 891	An orthodox jew once told me that our purpose in serving god was to "repair the world." I assume he meant fix the damage created by Adam's sin so, at least in their theology, there would be nothing wrong with treating diseases and suffering. Now I would hate for some xian fundy to meditate on this too long though (fat chance of that, eh?) because they might start picketing hospitals or something. Oh wait, I forgot. God gave us doctors.

03-25-2003, 02:44 PM	#7
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	If god had meant us to fly, he'd never have given us the train. If god had meant us to have horrible illness, he'd never have invented medicine. (I suppose if god had meant me to follow the bible, he'd never have given me a brain)

03-25-2003, 05:54 PM	#10
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	If my wife was pregnant I'd want her to take pain killer as well. A woman friend of mine just had a baby, and she said the closest thing she can comapre giving birth to is having a broken leg set and that is not even close. I have had a broken leg set without pain killer, and I'l sure as hell never do that again!

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