Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rebelnerd · 11-08-2002, 08:27 AM

Quote:

<strong>Again, if Jebus is God and God is Jebus, how does sending himself suddenly turn God into Mr. Happy? Also, what assurance do we have that God is not going to get all "Old Testament" on us again? </strong>

Great lines!

I think if Strawberry used these alone , it would make the point.

Filo

Jamie_L · 11-08-2002, 08:52 AM

One of my favorite quotes from these boards:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:

Quote:

It is not just illogical or irrational to believe that burning bushes and snakes and donkeys speak, it is patently absurd; the obvious stuff of fable and myth. Likewise with a god who trifurcates into flesh in order to kill himself as a necessary sacrifice to himself in order to save all of us from himself, when he's to blame for creating us all that way to begin with.

Brewmaster · 11-09-2002, 05:56 AM

Strawberry,

You are very perceptive in seeing the falsity of your relative’s claims. I believe, as a Christian, that the OT and the NT display the covenant Lordship of God. The OT has not been replaced, or done away with. In fact, it is impossible to properly understand the NT without the use of the Old T. From Genesis to Revelation, we see an organized and unfolding plan of Redemption. This has been the historical view of the Church. Your relatives, I think, are dispensationalist, which is a way to interpret the Bible. It is a relatively new hermeneutic and very popular, unfortunately, in the old USA. My question is why are you so interested in deconstructing their beliefs concerning the Bible?

Strawberry · 11-10-2002, 05:09 PM

I am not so much interested in deconstructing their beliefs as I am in fending off their attempts at exorcism, etc., and preserving my sanity. I will inevitably be dragged into discussions involving religion, because religion is the central topic of discussion at my family gatherings (Daddy and two of his brothers work full-time for the church; one brother, one sister, and two sisters-in-law do volunteer church music; Grandma and Grandpa would send me tracts twice a week if they thought I didn't believe; the dogs wear tags with Bible verses on them...and my only aunt and uncle who would help me out are currently working jobs in Krakow and Nairobi).

I just want to be able to argue myself out of some tight corners.

Oh, and I think Brewmaster does an excellent job of delineating their viewpoint. Much more succinct than my attempt at it, that's for sure. I guess my relatives don't exactly want to "get rid of" the OT, it's just that they use the NT to justify throwing out some of the especially cruel and brutal passages. Ah, yes, the revelation of God's plan continues throughout the entire Bible, so when His people slaughtered whole ethnic groups, it was just because his plan hadn't been fully "revealed."

The relatives will, unfortunately, not respond well if I say anything along the lines of "This PROVES there's no god," or, "No one could logically believe there's a god after hearing this." Truthfully, I'm not going to change any minds. It's too scary for them to think about not having Cheesus for them to ever think that maybe they're wrong.

Maybe I should just take along a 48-pack of AA batteries for my Discman and the full-text, 1500-page edition of "Les Miserables" and park myself in the guest bedroom all through Christmas dinner.

Unfortunately, I'm masochistic and actually enjoy being with them when they're not talking about religion. Sigh...

Seatless Bike · 11-10-2002, 05:55 PM

Strawberry, like you I have to face these things during Christmas and Thanksgiving. My advice to you is thus: don't bother.
I love my family dearly and I know that they love me. They believe that I'm misguided, confused, and that soon I will be back in the fold.
If that makes them feel good, then so be it. Why cause yourself such concern and possibly put yourself into conflict with the people you love the most?
Remember, no matter what it is you believe or don't believe, they're still your family and they love you. Accept them as they are, and most likely they will accept you as such.
Don't cause yourself problems by arguing with them. Just enjoy the time you have together, because we're not here for all that long.

If they don't accept your intellectual position, that's okay. Your mind is still yours, your thoughts are still your own, and what you've learned can't be unlearned.
And if it's gonna be Thanksgiving, then eat like a pig, have some good conversation, and watch some damn football!
All of life isn't an intellectual exercise in proving that your right. Sometimes, it's just about relaxing and bullshitting.

My hopes are with you. Best of luck.

Walter_Mitty · 11-11-2002, 10:36 AM

Brew writes:

Quote:

The OT has not been replaced, or done away with. In fact, it is impossible to properly understand the NT without the use of the Old T. From Genesis to Revelation, we see an organized and unfolding plan of Redemption.

Curious BM, how do you feel about the OT God who has women and children killed or a man stoned to death for working on the sabbath? Do you believe that by sending Jesus, this absolves God of those obviously henious crimes?

Hubble head · 11-11-2002, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
<strong>My pet peeve has always been people who explain away the awful things in the OT with arguements similar to what Strawberry has outlined, but then use the OT to justify other behaviors. Like defending the death penalty with "Eye for an Eye" justice, etc.

You can't have it both ways. Either the OT still applies, or it doesn't. You can't pick your favorite bits and ignore the stuff you don't like.

Jamie</strong>

Almost all of the followers Abrahamic religions do this. They only chose to focus on their own definitions/interpretations of what is being told to them out of this fairy tale. It's one of religion's biggest hypocrisies.

People can convince themselves of almost anything they want to. At one point or another in our history various followers convinced themselves that god approved of slavery, raping virgins, murdering children, killing non believers and so on.

By adopting certain things and ignoring the others are they not going against the words of god? According to the bible, the only people who will make it to heaven are the (fundie) ones who follow ALL of the teachings. You can't re-define those passages that say, "follow my word or perish in hell" no matter how hard you try.

By filtering out what they disagree with they do nothing more than create more religions. The bible is the bible. It says the same thing now that it said almost 500 years ago but we now have about 500 different religions to go along with it.

If the bibles are the words of a true god then who are any of us to interpret it/him/her for our convenience?

Grumpy · 11-11-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strawberry:
An argument that my fundie relatives often use in defending the Bible is that the OT was kept in the canonical Bible because it shows us what life would have been like if God hadn't sent Jesus to save us.

Considering that the tales of the OT are so fanciful as be be indistinguishable from make-believe, the "bad example" intepretation reflects badly on God. If the OT events are in fact historical, it means God postponed salvation while events played themselves out, simply so that stories of the atrocities could serve the same function as a hypothetical construct. Sounds like something the pointy-haired boss would do.

Further, considering that Moses and others communicate with God personally, I don't see how it depicts a world without His saving grace.

For example, did people stone Sabbath breakers to death because they didn't have Jesus? No, because according to Numbers 15, God himself told them to.

Brewmaster · 11-12-2002, 07:57 AM

Strawberry: I feel very sorry for you. As a Christian, I am as frustrated as you are by people who act they way you say your relatives do. And dogs with bible verse dogtags!?! Their intentions seem to be good, but their theology is very bad and this misunderstanding drives much of their actions I would suspect. For a different taste, i would suggest you read Desiring God by John Piper. It is probably a side of Christianity that you've never seen.

Bibliophile: God in not guilty in the first place.

Vesica · 11-12-2002, 08:54 AM

Either your relatives have not read or do not follow Matt 22:39 - The bit about loving your neighbors (i.e. other humans) as yourself.

Well that or that have serious masochistic tendancies.....

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-09-2002, 05:56 AM	#13
Brewmaster Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oviedo, Fl Posts: 18	Strawberry, You are very perceptive in seeing the falsity of your relative’s claims. I believe, as a Christian, that the OT and the NT display the covenant Lordship of God. The OT has not been replaced, or done away with. In fact, it is impossible to properly understand the NT without the use of the Old T. From Genesis to Revelation, we see an organized and unfolding plan of Redemption. This has been the historical view of the Church. Your relatives, I think, are dispensationalist, which is a way to interpret the Bible. It is a relatively new hermeneutic and very popular, unfortunately, in the old USA. My question is why are you so interested in deconstructing their beliefs concerning the Bible?

11-10-2002, 05:09 PM	#14
Strawberry Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA/Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 627	I am not so much interested in deconstructing their beliefs as I am in fending off their attempts at exorcism, etc., and preserving my sanity. I will inevitably be dragged into discussions involving religion, because religion is the central topic of discussion at my family gatherings (Daddy and two of his brothers work full-time for the church; one brother, one sister, and two sisters-in-law do volunteer church music; Grandma and Grandpa would send me tracts twice a week if they thought I didn't believe; the dogs wear tags with Bible verses on them...and my only aunt and uncle who would help me out are currently working jobs in Krakow and Nairobi). I just want to be able to argue myself out of some tight corners. Oh, and I think Brewmaster does an excellent job of delineating their viewpoint. Much more succinct than my attempt at it, that's for sure. I guess my relatives don't exactly want to "get rid of" the OT, it's just that they use the NT to justify throwing out some of the especially cruel and brutal passages. Ah, yes, the revelation of God's plan continues throughout the entire Bible, so when His people slaughtered whole ethnic groups, it was just because his plan hadn't been fully "revealed." The relatives will, unfortunately, not respond well if I say anything along the lines of "This PROVES there's no god," or, "No one could logically believe there's a god after hearing this." Truthfully, I'm not going to change any minds. It's too scary for them to think about not having Cheesus for them to ever think that maybe they're wrong. Maybe I should just take along a 48-pack of AA batteries for my Discman and the full-text, 1500-page edition of "Les Miserables" and park myself in the guest bedroom all through Christmas dinner. Unfortunately, I'm masochistic and actually enjoy being with them when they're not talking about religion. Sigh...

11-10-2002, 05:55 PM	#15
Seatless Bike Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Riverside Posts: 72	Strawberry, like you I have to face these things during Christmas and Thanksgiving. My advice to you is thus: don't bother. I love my family dearly and I know that they love me. They believe that I'm misguided, confused, and that soon I will be back in the fold. If that makes them feel good, then so be it. Why cause yourself such concern and possibly put yourself into conflict with the people you love the most? Remember, no matter what it is you believe or don't believe, they're still your family and they love you. Accept them as they are, and most likely they will accept you as such. Don't cause yourself problems by arguing with them. Just enjoy the time you have together, because we're not here for all that long. If they don't accept your intellectual position, that's okay. Your mind is still yours, your thoughts are still your own, and what you've learned can't be unlearned. And if it's gonna be Thanksgiving, then eat like a pig, have some good conversation, and watch some damn football! All of life isn't an intellectual exercise in proving that your right. Sometimes, it's just about relaxing and bullshitting. My hopes are with you. Best of luck.

11-12-2002, 07:57 AM	#19
Brewmaster Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oviedo, Fl Posts: 18	Strawberry: I feel very sorry for you. As a Christian, I am as frustrated as you are by people who act they way you say your relatives do. And dogs with bible verse dogtags!?! Their intentions seem to be good, but their theology is very bad and this misunderstanding drives much of their actions I would suspect. For a different taste, i would suggest you read Desiring God by John Piper. It is probably a side of Christianity that you've never seen. Bibliophile: God in not guilty in the first place.

11-12-2002, 08:54 AM	#20
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	Either your relatives have not read or do not follow Matt 22:39 - The bit about loving your neighbors (i.e. other humans) as yourself. Well that or that have serious masochistic tendancies.....

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.