Arrowman

Hello Joel, and a belated welcome. I have read this thread with interest, and I appreciate your contribution.

All well and good, but you miss the key element of the Faith Based Initiative: that it is directed not to "non profits" in general, but to faith-based (ie religious) organisations. A non-religious or atheist organisation does not qualify. Do you think that is a fair stance for a government to take?

Buffman

Joel

(Concerning Jonah)
Yes, I certainly do. Just because some things in the Bible don't seem realistic doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Rhetorical statements: Do you hold the identical view about all the miracles expressed in Greek/Roman mythology? How about Superman Comic Books?

Specific question: How do you determine fact from fiction?

Ronin

Even if this divine Being 'willed' the most horrendous tragedies in the world by act or ommission to act, can you still love God unconditionally?

~ I'm wearing pants.

Stephen T-B

Joel, I appreciate you‘ve a lot on, so I want to thank you for your response to my earlier post.
It mentioned certain inconsistencies, such as the fact that when you read the Bible it turned you into a Christian, but when I did, I was simply confirmed in my disbelief. I’d be interested in your “take” on that.
And also, on why you think god presented himself to the Jews in Biblical times in such a way as to make Faith in him unnecessary, but is now only to be found in the words of the Bible which, as we see, aren’t so convincing that everyone who reads them discovers god in them.
I am interested in why you think some of god’s laws are applicable but not others - usury for example? And if the Bible really is the word of god, why is it so ambiguous that Christendom should be riven by thousands of factions, each of which thinks it knows the truth, exclusively?
I am also interested in your response to Buffman’s learned post which asks which books constitute the Bible? There seems to be a degree of disagreement here, and I don’t understand how that can be, if the Bible is the word of god. Looks to me like people are choosing his words for him.
Finally, do you think the Earth is flat? If not, did you know that various passages in the Bible assert that it is?

HelenM

Perhaps she (?) will say it's fine. But I think it's best to ask

(I don't have to run to see the rising sun, though. I just have to get up early enough on a beautiful morning...my computer is by a window facing East...)

take care
Helen

Kosh

Right. Let the record show that Joel here has a gullibilty rating of 10. And a critical thinking rating of about.... 1 (maybe).

Ie, The "godidit" apologetic.

Most fictional stories contain a historically valid backdrop. That in itself is not enough to validate the fiction itself.


Once again, it wasn't that far from Israel. Wanna bet there was more than one person named Jonah in the area?

Well folks, that does it for me on this thread. As demonstrated here by Joels responses, you'll get nothing more than typical apologetics here.

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kosh ]</p>

DigitalDruid

Joel wrote:
Ha ha ha - that’s an amusing modern-day replay of the Jonah story! But I can see various (all certified bible-compliant ) ways for your free ride to end in a rather abrupt manner:

(1) The big fish exercises its freewill and chomps on you instead of swallowing you whole in spite of God’s command to be especially gentle. After all there are many examples in the Bible of God being disobeyed. And if a fig tree can have freewill (hence deserve Jesus’s curse for doing something ‘terrible’), why not a big fish? I can only hope God would inject adequate amount of instant anesthesia to make the pain go away.

(2) A naughty but much bigger fish, again exercising its God-given sweet freewill, chomps on the fish-and-you combo! Talk about stuffed-fish sandwich! But this time unfortunately the action is too drastic and your location is pratically unreachable for timely administration of anestheasia - even by God. Afetr all God needs some time (didn't he take days to create the universe even though he is omni-all?)

(3) The whole thing is a diabolical setup by - you guessed it- the devil! The devil impersonates God (he can be quite clever, can’t he?) and dupes you to board the big fish’s open mouth for what you think would be a joy ride. The moment you are in - crunch, crunch! Sorry, no God around this time to deliver anesthesia. Don't count on it. He didn't show up when eve was being duped by the devil. Did he?

By the way, you strongly avow that there are no limits on God (omni - present/scient/potent/benevolent ). Then why do I detect a tinge of hesitation in you to obey the hypothetical command of such an omni-all God? Specifically, why you would "definitely not be VERY compelled to ever tell God ‘No." rather than "definitely not be AT ALL compelled to ever tell God ‘No’". Besides, why use such tentative tortuous phrase to indicate your "willingness" for this divine-ordained mission when you can be direct and emphatic: "I will not ever tell God 'No""? Is it because a part of you believe God might fail to deliver? That’s called skepticism and it is an important first step in critical thinking. If so, that’s good news, though not in the gospel sense!

As for the "evidence" you and the link you provided mention for the Jonah story, let’s assume the place and the names etc. are all historical. But does that verify the story? The Greek and Indian epics are full of historical places and characters, but does it mean the fantastic occurrence described there are thereby corroborated? There is ample historical evidence that there was actually a king named Midas, but do you think whatever he touched turned into Gold? We humans are myth-making animals and some of the early myths (virgin birth/ global flood/ resurrection etc.) were later incorporated into Christianity from pagan religions and cultures. Just type "Christian myth" in google.com and browse. Also "Christian Myth" by Burton Mack is a great book packed with information.

Regards

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalDruid ]

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalDruid ]

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalDruid ]</p>

Mageth

HoosierGuy28:

Ok, I actually took a little time to research your response concerning the resurrection of Christ. Actually, this has been a very good topic for discussion and I would encourage you to get other views on it. Now from my research, I have found pretty much what I was saying before in my first post concerning the view of Christ being crucified on Friday, but I needed to get a little more clarification for myself. I didn't take nearly enough time as I should have before.

Let me take a quote from a section of a book I've been reading concerning this same topic.
&lt;snip.&gt;

If you'll carefully study the scriptures I posted, you'll see that Jesus was reportedly executed and buried during the day of preparation (let's assume it's Friday, since it is), stayed there through the Sabbath (Saturday), and arose before dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday).

Now Jewish "days" begin at sundown and end at the following sundown. So count the first day (Friday) as one day. Saturday begins at dusk. Dusk to dawn - one night. Saturday dawn to dusk - two days. Sunday dusk to dawn - two nights.

Now you can cheat a little as you indicate and say Friday, Saturday, Sunday - voila, three days! But you're still left with only two nights.

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Marduk

"Also,the name "Oannes" has been found in some of their writings which is very similar to how Jonah is spelled in the Septuagint, in which it adds an "I" and is spelled "Ioannes"."

Oannes is another name for the Sumerian God Ea or Enki, he whose house is water, he lived in the sea and came out in the daylight to teach lessons to early humans, whom he created at the behest of the other gods, to be their servants.

HoosierGuy28

Arrowman,

As I said earlier, I am not very familiar with this issue. Personally, I think if a group of agnostics and atheists wanted to start a non-profit organization and provide charitable services to those in need, I don't see any reason not to include them. I'm certainly not against it.

Buffman,

Study, study, and then study some more. I see no reason not to believe in anything the Bible has to say. It may not always say what I would like to hear, but it has yet to fail me. If you actually get into studying things in the Bible, outside of dealing with some of the criticisms, it really is an amazing book(s). It has a very distinct order to it, and when you start putting things together, you realize that the Bible was in fact inspired by God.

Kosh

Actually my critical thinking rating would be much much higher. I don't throw things out just because they seem a bit unusual. I would think it would require someone to be much more gullible to disregard something just because others tell them it isn't possible or likely.

DigitalDruid,

I can appreciate your attempt at humor (at least I am thinking it is meant to be humorous)

Actually, I personally would not tell God "no", but I am not everyone else. I was just putting myself in that situation and suggesting that it wouldn't have been likely for Jonah to refuse to listen to God after experiencing being swallowed by a rather large fish. I don't have any doubts concerning God and I don't see that I have any reason to. Also, skepticism can be good at times, but it is possible to have too much skepticism. If you have to ask an infinite number of "whys" or "why nots", you probably won't get too far. At some point you have to decide that you have adequate knowledge to make a decision, and then you can later expand on that knowledge and form an even more detailed decision.

[quote]We humans are myth-making animals and some of the early myths (virgin birth/ global flood/ resurrection etc.) were later incorporated into Christianity from pagan religions and cultures./QUOTE]

First, I am not an animal. If you want to consider yourself an animal, then by all means think that way. Second, I have heard and researched many such claims made and I have yet to find any that are even slightly impressive. If you want to understand something, study the source. If you want to understand the Bible/Christianity, then pick up a Bible and talk to some Christians. Thanks for your response.

Mageth

The thing is, I don't need another night. That is what I researched last night, and actually I got some more confirmation on it this morning. The use is an idiom that is common in ancient Hebrew language. Throughout this thread I have listed several sources which confirm this. I also talked to one of the professors at the university I attend (without mentioning what I had found in my research) and he gave me the same response. It seems odd when compared to the English language, but it is correct in the Hebrew language.

Thanks for all of your responses

Joel

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: HoosierGuy28 ]</p>