Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Colander of Truth · 05-21-2003, 08:09 PM

But then you'll confuse a whole section of America that wants a label that applies to everything they think or feel. Kinda like a Cummins Diesel hat on an Iowa farmer - no good reason to change it. Labels are better when they're religious.

Nobody really wants to think. Television proves that.

Kevbo · 05-21-2003, 08:40 PM

LOL, I scored "Dalai Lama" on the compass test.

Loren Pechtel · 05-21-2003, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Subi dura a rudibus
But then you'll confuse a whole section of America that wants a label that applies to everything they think or feel. Kinda like a Cummins Diesel hat on an Iowa farmer - no good reason to change it. Labels are better when they're religious.

Nobody really wants to think. Television proves that.

Nope. I watch maybe a couple of hours a week most weeks.

elwoodblues · 05-22-2003, 08:32 AM

Seems I'm about a quarter inch away from 'liberal democrat', whatever that means.

John Hancock · 05-22-2003, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
It's not antiquated because it was *NEVER* a valid representation. It's not less valid now than it used to be.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Gad! I'm astounded.

Martin

meritocrat · 05-22-2003, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by somedude
This may interest you.

Political Compass

I've already seen it and have it bookmarked.

Personally I feel the model used on the politicalcompass is the best alternative to the left-right spectrum.

Misso · 05-22-2003, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Why not use them as they were originally intended: to relatively place positions on a continuum of statism. Left = less statism. more individualism; right = more statism, less individualism.

It's the other way around: left is more statism and less individualism, right is less statism (more market) and more individualism.

I don't think the left-right scale is out of date. There have been studies, and they show that people can still know the meaning of the words and can place themselves on a left-right scale quite well (though it is, of course, a fairly relative scale).

Colander of Truth · 05-22-2003, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Misso
It's the other way around: left is more statism and less individualism, right is less statism (more market) and more individualism.

No, not at all from an academic/political science point of view, but you may be right about it as far as colloquial speech goes, such as what is heard on the am radio. But the OP is talking about this continuum's uselessness, so urging the colloquial only makes the point.

I did say "original intent," or something like that. Certainly, meanings change, look at what "state of the art" means now. Original meaning was "ordinary."

Market is not statism. Statism refers to power or authority in government, which is what "right" means, versus authority in the individual, or the people, which is what "left" means. You will always hear about clashes involving "rightist militia" and "leftist rebels." There really aren't any "rightist rebels," save for am radio.

meritocrat · 05-23-2003, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Alinsky

I also think the terms "conservative" and "liberal" have lost their usefulness. In classical economics, a "liberal" is someone who believes in free trade and unfettered market fluctuations, a "conservative" is someone who wants high tariffs and agrarian protectionist policies. Does it make sense to label anti-capitalist socialists as "conservatives", because of their position on international trade? Plus, it's too clumsy to say you're a social "conservative", but an economic "liberal". "Radical" and "reactionary" are also rather antiquated and confusing terms.

The terms conservative and liberal are used to denote specific political ideologies.

The term liberal has altered from its original use.

Silent Acorns · 05-23-2003, 03:12 PM

I don't think the left-right spectrum is out of date, it's just too simplistic on it's own. Just because the 2-D N-S-E-W system is superior to a simple N-S system doesn't make "North-South" outdated.

As for the political compass test, I finished 3.5 towards the economic left and 7 towards libertarian. I guess that makes me a Green Dala Lama.i

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05-21-2003, 08:09 PM	#11
Colander of Truth Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Sri Dunka .... Donut: Cruller w/Jimmies Posts: 2,710	But then you'll confuse a whole section of America that wants a label that applies to everything they think or feel. Kinda like a Cummins Diesel hat on an Iowa farmer - no good reason to change it. Labels are better when they're religious. Nobody really wants to think. Television proves that.

05-21-2003, 08:40 PM	#12
Kevbo Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: NY Posts: 212	LOL, I scored "Dalai Lama" on the compass test.

05-22-2003, 08:32 AM	#14
elwoodblues Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Dunmanifestin, Discworld Posts: 4,836	Seems I'm about a quarter inch away from 'liberal democrat', whatever that means.

05-23-2003, 03:12 PM	#20
Silent Acorns Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SW 31 52 24W4 Posts: 1,508	I don't think the left-right spectrum is out of date, it's just too simplistic on it's own. Just because the 2-D N-S-E-W system is superior to a simple N-S system doesn't make "North-South" outdated. As for the political compass test, I finished 3.5 towards the economic left and 7 towards libertarian. I guess that makes me a Green Dala Lama.i

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