Just Another Infidel

I certainly would mind. I don't see this as a question of being passive so much as an issue of appearing civil enough for John Q. Public to take us seriously. If you really want some attention, go blow something up and take credit for it in the name of atheists everywhere. That would be an active approach.

I can't buy into this. I will always react with hostility to anything being forced on me and I presume most other people will also.

I also think it was a positive step, but it needs to grow in size and scope to be noticed. Perhaps simultaneous assemblies in several major cities across the U.S.???

Sounds great. Has AA raised enough money to pay the rent? How about getting some editorials in the New York Times? How about getting an atheist congressman/governor/mayor elected?

We're in agreement about the goal SushiX, we differ on the tactics to acheive it.

JAI

ybnormal

GaryP:

I think the time for passiveness is well past.

I envy one who can say it all in 10 words or less.

With that in mind, I'm interested to see just where this particular organization is going with what seems to be an increasing call for tolerance against its increasingly militant adversary. It's possible that I only need to fully understand their meaning of the word "tolerance".


...concentrate on the problem of church/state separation and not attacking the belief itself.

And it must be done using the words of Americans who are beyond reproach, above denigration and adored by Christians, even if it has to be The Jesus himself. (don't snicker at the contradiction... most xians won't notice it)


The trick is to get more of us vocal enough to demand that equality.

You musta been following the How vocal are you about being a non-believer? thread.

Buffman

Defiant H.

Most people don’t see the threat that Bush & Co. present to the Establishment Clause. We need to convince them that there is a threat before convincing them to fight it.


(Begin rant)
My view is slightly different. I don't feel that we need to start with alerting people to the threat. I believe we need to be even more basic. We need to educate people to how the 1st Amendment clause protects all of us from the potential tyranny of the majority....whomever they may currently be or become....religious or non-religious.

If people don't understand how the clause protects them, then they aren't going to be very concerned about any supposed threat.

El Queda religious terrorism is a real, direct and constant threat to people's security. People can see and feel that. They can't see how Christians could be a threat to their security because the majority of them are Christians. They have never experienced the horrors of religious warfare that raged on the Continent for so many decades. Currently they only see Muslims as a threat. They don't see religion as one. They don't see Allah (PBUH) as their God. That is where we fail to present a clear relationship of all supernatural beliefs and the conditioned mental madness that can be grown from these superstitious roots.

Only when they grasp the vital uniqueness of the 1st Amendment liberties and protections will they become concerned enough to take action against anyone who violates those protections/liberties. Given what Bush has just done concerning the faith based initiative, there should have been a cry throughout the land that he be impeached. I barely heard a minor muttering that was quickly silenced as being un-Patriotic.

What we can physically do to protect our constitutional liberties from being violated or even eventually being declared unconstitutional, has been discussed before. I believe that it starts with a financial war chest that is used to hire professionals to run the campaigns of education/re-education/ media blitzes/leadership and activism seminars/organizational planning/etc. The idea that there will be a sudden awareness/awakening to the truth of the atheist message is an ideologue's daydream. The radical Christian right has been working their extremely successful plan for a very long time.,,but it all started with obtaining enough money to be used in whatever fashion would bring about the most desired results to achieve their ultimate ends...control of all three branches of the U.S. Government with the support of the majority of Americans that exercise their right to vote. Unfortunately, that American majority is no longer as accurately informed as it once was. American freedoms have been manipulated to have us seeking security before liberty.

(End rant...for the moment.)

ybnormal

JAI:

I don't see this as a question of being passive so much as an issue of appearing civil enough for John Q. Public to take us seriously.

I continue to be confounded by this idea, and I see it as quite pervasive on this site. I would think that the two most active threads currently running on this forum would convince most anyone to rethink that let's be civil so they'll take us seriously idea.

Maybe it isn't only John Q. Public who needs to take someone else seriously.

Toto

Forcing stuff down people's throats makes them gag and reject it. People are as rational as they want to be about religion. Changing minds is about using marketing and persuasion, not brute force.

Toto

Note - for the irony impaired, this is sarcasm.

Richard1366

Wouldn't it be nice if some Secular organization had a large budget to spread our ideas. Unfortunately, that organization doesn't exist, and there is no money to spend.

Let's face it, theists provide our public relations, the problem is that it is all wrong. The word is out that Athiests are devil worshipers, immoral, sinful, etc. etc. Religions hate us more than they hate other religions. For exercising her beliefs and rights, Madelyn O'Hare was branded the most hated person in America, so much for fair play.

Without the money, winning hearts and minds will have to be done one heart and mind at a time. How can we ever hope to make our beliefs known if most? of us still aren't "out of the closet" as atheists even to our own loved ones.

We can sit at our keyboards and send e-mails to our legislators, but they already know that they have been voted in by theists so you know how much pull we will have with them. We can join organizations, but none that I know of have any pro-active agendas, most are simply re-active. We can talk to each other which is preaching to the choir and occasionally we can converse with the troll of the month, but in reality, this promotes nothing.

You say that we just want to be left alone and not have religious beliefs pushed at us, yet we must remember that all those churches operate tax free, and the government financial support to "faith based" organizations is now an everyday occurance and getting stronger. We see everyday the "bad" in religion, someone needs to point that out. It really is us versus them.

I live in the DC area, lets face it, I have seen local chili cook-offs get more publicity than GAMOW did.

Every journey starts with a single step, I was simply pointing out a simple first grass-roots step that anyone can take.

GaryP

Being civil should not be equated with being passive. One can be assertive and civil.

I think of it as labor negotiations. One can demand one's rights in a legal and civil manner.

Sushi X

Sorry, bad choice of words. What I meant was that we need to be forceful in spreading Atheist belief.

Genious! We should try and get someone at AA working on this for sometime in the future (and I won't accidentally sleep in for this one!)

I am afraid I cannot convey my thoughts clearly, and everyone has done a great job of clarifying me. Thank you. All I'm saying is that we need to ACTIVELY get our message out and maybe even win some converts. We can attack religion later after we get an effective power base.

Buffman

Sushi X

What I meant was that we need to be forceful in spreading Atheist belief.

Yup! It is frustrating. However, I arrived at the point where I found the effort to push an Atheist belief to be self-defeating. Instead, I now attempt to push for programs/courses/studies of critical thinking skills to be taught at every level of socierty...from pre-school to senior adult education.