Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GunnerJ · 05-18-2002, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Two of my closest friends are atheists. What I observe is that their personal morals are sometimes re-defined after action has been taken, in order to justify the action.

So let me get this straight... you base your whole claim that the main attraction of atheism is that is frees you from moral considerations based solely on the actions of two atheists engaging in situational ethics... without even showing that situational ethics is a sub-standard moral code?

Un. Be. Lievable.

free12thinker · 05-18-2002, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113:
I will always admit to mistakes that I've made, but on this occasion I'm calling it as I see it.

Two of my closest friends are atheists. What I observe is that their personal morals are sometimes re-defined after action has been taken, in order to justify the action.

I do not say that all atheists live their lives in this fashion, I say that, in my experience, the facilty is avilable, and some atheists avail themselves of it.

It seems we always stray away from the original topic, but since you have, I am free to oblige your new interest (Atheists are only atheists so that they can live without morals).

Well here's something for you to chew on (True Story):
I am an atheist, but not many people at work know that I am. Every quarter, someone is nominated for Difference Maker. I was nominated for Difference Maker (for a 3rd time) for having been a Big Brothers Volunteer, starting a fund for someone who lost their house to a fire and being a positive role model to the younger staff. Upon receiving my award (for the 3rd time, mind you), I was given a standing ovation and was treated to a speech from my supervisor. The speech was very spiritual, but it didn't bother me, because I knew the intentions were grand. After the ceremony, my supervisor approached me and asked me if I was offended by the speech, and asked me what my denomination was. Well, I had to be honest with him. Upon telling him I was atheist, everything changed. I was given being black balled around the office, and several people (in an anonymous letter) questioned my ability to sponsor the office as a difference maker. So where is my lack of morals for simply being an Atheist? I obviously did everything else right, right?

Now I could use this story and single out the 35 or so employees who lost all of their dignity and kindness after shunning me for my beliefs, but I am not narrow minded in that regard. It appears as though you are though. You are singling out all atheists, because a couple of them that you know, don't have any morals. Just out of curiosity, what do they do to make you question their morals?

lpetrich · 05-18-2002, 08:04 PM

I think that something like this "experiment" has been going on for most of humanity's history, as humanity as dispersed over much of the Earth's land surface -- with Stone Age technology, no less.

And the older sort of religions that people have tended to have are animist or pagan with lots of gods and ghosts and spirits inhabiting the world around them. But with no exclusive "our god is the only god" monotheism, and certainly no unambiguous premonitions of the coming of Jesus Christ or Mohammed!

I think the question of life after death is entirely separate from the question of the existence of a god or gods. Many people have believed in only a drab afterlife if any at all. One example is right under the noses of many of us -- the people in the earlier parts of the Bible had very little conception of the afterlife, if any at all. One's ghost might be called up by some conjurer, but that's about all -- in Ecclesiastes, the Preacher suggests that our consciousness will not survive death. And in nearby Greece, Hades was conceived as a place where one leads a very shadowy and insubstantial existence.

The Other Michael · 05-18-2002, 08:28 PM

Hi free12thinker,

It seems that we atheists, in accord with established theist practice, must now presume that ALL theists are unable to distinguish good behavior from theistic behavior (in that only the latter is the former).

You have my sympathy in re your coworkers.

cheers,
Michael

Ron Singh · 05-18-2002, 10:08 PM

Even though I'm a theist, and think that atheism is rediculous

, I hope that your co-workers become 'better Christians' or whatever they may be

. My condolences. I invite everyone to GET BACK ON TOPIC! Thankyou.

~playing moderator, your friendly neighborhood 15yr old Sikh

AJ113 · 05-19-2002, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Datheron: Your original statement:

I believe that the main attraction of atheism is that it negates the need for any morals.

claims that the main attraction - that is, the biggest reason - to be atheist is this negation of morals. Is this not a bracket statement made against all atheists which is obviously false?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it could certainly be taken as that, and it is not what I intended to say. So apologies if anyone took offence, the statement is retracted in favour of this one:

Quote:

AJ: I do not say that all atheists live their lives in this fashion, I say that, in my experience, the facility is avilable, and some atheists avail themselves of it.

@Free12thinker:
Your experience is regrettable. I do not see that you would be narrow minded in singling out the 35 individuals for some sort of attention. They treated you badly, at the very least they should be made aware of this.

Philosoft · 05-19-2002, 06:41 PM

AJ113,

Now that you have amended your position thusly:

Quote:

AJ: I do not say that all atheists live their lives in this fashion, I say that, in my experience, the facility is avilable, and some atheists avail themselves of it.

I ask, do you believe all those who shun morals (as you would define them) are atheists?

AJ113 · 05-20-2002, 08:38 AM

I have not amended my position, only my phrasing.

Quote:

Philosoft: I ask, do you believe all those who shun morals (as you would define them) are atheists?

No.

free12thinker · 05-20-2002, 09:59 AM

AJ 113,

In what ways have you felt God, or seen God? I'm just curious. Trying to get back to the topic at hand to.

I ask because I am skeptical when people say that they have felt God or seen god (things like that).

Do you have any personal experiences with such feelings?

One more questions to: If I were to tell you that I saw a ghost, would you believe me?

Philosoft · 05-20-2002, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113:
I have not amended my position, only my phrasing.

Ok.

In response to my question:

Quote:

Philosoft: I ask, do you believe all those who shun morals (as you would define them) are atheists?

AJ wrote:

Quote:

No.

So why needlessly speculate about peoples motivations for rejecting theism when, according to you, it isn't even necessary to shun traditional morals? Has anyone ever actually told you that he became an atheist in order to jettison Christian morals?

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05-18-2002, 08:04 PM	#33
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I think that something like this "experiment" has been going on for most of humanity's history, as humanity as dispersed over much of the Earth's land surface -- with Stone Age technology, no less. And the older sort of religions that people have tended to have are animist or pagan with lots of gods and ghosts and spirits inhabiting the world around them. But with no exclusive "our god is the only god" monotheism, and certainly no unambiguous premonitions of the coming of Jesus Christ or Mohammed! I think the question of life after death is entirely separate from the question of the existence of a god or gods. Many people have believed in only a drab afterlife if any at all. One example is right under the noses of many of us -- the people in the earlier parts of the Bible had very little conception of the afterlife, if any at all. One's ghost might be called up by some conjurer, but that's about all -- in Ecclesiastes, the Preacher suggests that our consciousness will not survive death. And in nearby Greece, Hades was conceived as a place where one leads a very shadowy and insubstantial existence.

05-18-2002, 08:28 PM	#34
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Hi free12thinker, It seems that we atheists, in accord with established theist practice, must now presume that ALL theists are unable to distinguish good behavior from theistic behavior (in that only the latter is the former). You have my sympathy in re your coworkers. cheers, Michael

05-18-2002, 10:08 PM	#35
Ron Singh Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 163	Even though I'm a theist, and think that atheism is rediculous , I hope that your co-workers become 'better Christians' or whatever they may be . My condolences. I invite everyone to GET BACK ON TOPIC! Thankyou. ~playing moderator, your friendly neighborhood 15yr old Sikh

05-20-2002, 09:59 AM	#39
free12thinker Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: DC Metropolitan Area Posts: 417	AJ 113, In what ways have you felt God, or seen God? I'm just curious. Trying to get back to the topic at hand to. I ask because I am skeptical when people say that they have felt God or seen god (things like that). Do you have any personal experiences with such feelings? One more questions to: If I were to tell you that I saw a ghost, would you believe me?

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