Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 11-06-2002, 07:21 PM

From Franklins autobigraphy:

I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and govern'd it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter. These I esteem'd the essentials of every religion; and, being to be found in all the religions we had in our country, I respected them all, tho' with different degrees of respect, as I found them more or less mix'd with other articles, which, without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serv'd principally to divide us, and make us unfriendly to one another. This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induc'd me to avoid all discourse that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; and as our province increas'd in people, and new places of worship were continually wanted, and generally erected by voluntary contributions, my mite for such purpose, whatever might be the sect, was never refused.

Tho' I seldom attended any public worship, I had still an opinion of its propriety, and of its utility when rightly conducted, and I regularly paid my annual subscription for the support of the only Presbyterian minister or meeting we had in Philadelphia. He us'd to visit me sometimes as a friend, and admonish me to attend his administrations, and I was now and then prevail'd on to do so, once for five Sundays successively. Had he been in my opinion a good preacher, perhaps I might have continued, notwithstanding the occasion I had for the Sunday's leisure in my course of study; but his discourses were chiefly either polemic arguments, or explications of the peculiar doctrines of our sect, and were all to me very dry, uninteresting, and unedifying, since not a single moral principle was inculcated or enforc'd, their aim seeming to be rather to make us Presbyterians than good citizens.

Big enough context for ya, Buffman?

Gee, I guess he wouldn't have visited this web site, given this statement:

"This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induc'd me to avoid all discourse that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion;

Rad

{edited by Toto to fix tag}

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

randomsyllable · 11-06-2002, 07:24 PM

Yes Radorth, your quote is indicative of Franklin being a Deist. Something that we are not debating. However, your increasingly spurious claims made here and in other threads are starting to wear a bit.

Daggah · 11-06-2002, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Gee, I guess he wouldn't have visited this web site, given this statement:

Is the poor wittle Wadorth offended by the mean ol' atheists? Poor wittle baby!

gravitybow · 11-06-2002, 07:51 PM

Radorth,I believe you have readily offered a Barton/Franklin quote, which I have kindly accepted. The one about lack of atheists. Do I have to enclose two box tops and a SASE to get it? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Radorth · 11-06-2002, 07:52 PM

Not at all Daggah. Hopefully the more thoughtful atheists here got the point. How old are you anyway?

Quote:

1) Your claims about the school prayer case.
2) Your claims in this thread about Franklin.

I cited the case (in another thread) in which some heavy hitters came out against letting kids form a prayer club. (Note: ACLU was conspicuously absent from advocating such minor freedoms as the right to pray on campus) Guess you missed it.

What did I claim about Frankin which does not appear above? Also please use direct quotes when slandering people.

Rad

Radorth · 11-06-2002, 08:11 PM

My this has turned into quite the feeding frenzy.

Quote:

Yes Radorth, your quote is indicative of Franklin being a Deist.

LOL! Deists believe in a final judgement, afterlife and that God is personally involved in the affairs of humans? Wow. Every other atheist who honestly defines a deist that way, please raise your hand.

The Barton/Franklin quote? I was speaking of the Barton/Price/LaHaye/Wogan/Franklin quote from his phamphlet of information for those wishing to come to America. You know where he says "infidelity is rare and secret" and one does not have to worry about having his "piety" shocked by meeting an atheist? And where "religion is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced?"

Are you saying Barton made that up as well?

Well he does stop short of saying atheists are unwelcome, a hair's breadth IMO.

Rad

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

Toto · 11-06-2002, 08:15 PM

Radorth - this is so like trying to nail jello to the wall.

I looked up the quote that you gave. It is in <a href="http://www.earlyamerica.com/lives/franklin/chapt8/index.html" target="_blank">Chapter 8 of Franklin's autobiography.</a> But you left off most of the first sentence.

Quote:

I had been religiously educated as a Presbyterian; and tho' some of the dogmas of that persuasion, such as the eternal decrees of God, election, reprobation, etc., appeared to me unintelligible, others doubtful, and I early absented myself from the public assemblies of the sect, Sunday being my studying day, I never was without some religious principles.

A bit of a change in emphasis, no?

Then further on, he holds up Jesus as a moral example, on a plane with pagan Socrates.

And this is the only mention of "atheist" in Franklin's autobiography (Chapter 2):

"my indiscrete disputations about religion began to make me pointed at with horror by good people as an infidel or atheist."

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

gravitybow · 11-06-2002, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Rad:
Are you saying Barton made that up as well?

How do I know? You haven't given me the quote you offered to send, have you?

fromtheright · 11-06-2002, 08:44 PM

TWIMC, will be gone for the next week plus. Looking forward to getting back to this.

Toto · 11-06-2002, 08:48 PM

The quote about the rarity of atheism in America is from a pamplet recruiting Europeans to colonize America, reprinted here: <a href="http://users.ev1.net/~holliser/Agora/text/Philosophy%20&%20Politics/Franklin/Remove.html" target="_blank">"Information for Those Who Would Remove to America "</a>

It is descriptive advertising written around 1782. It describes American as a middle class society where you can get ahead if you work. Nothing in it says that atheists or infidels or dissenters should be expelled from America, or are not welcome.

I am not fully conversant with Deism, but I believe that there were Deists who believed in a God, which they sometimes called Divine Providence, and who believed in an afterlife. They sometimes used language like Christians, but they did not believe in the divinity of Jesus or in the revealed truth of the Bible.

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11-06-2002, 07:21 PM	#131
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	From Franklins autobigraphy: I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and govern'd it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter. These I esteem'd the essentials of every religion; and, being to be found in all the religions we had in our country, I respected them all, tho' with different degrees of respect, as I found them more or less mix'd with other articles, which, without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serv'd principally to divide us, and make us unfriendly to one another. This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induc'd me to avoid all discourse that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; and as our province increas'd in people, and new places of worship were continually wanted, and generally erected by voluntary contributions, my mite for such purpose, whatever might be the sect, was never refused. Tho' I seldom attended any public worship, I had still an opinion of its propriety, and of its utility when rightly conducted, and I regularly paid my annual subscription for the support of the only Presbyterian minister or meeting we had in Philadelphia. He us'd to visit me sometimes as a friend, and admonish me to attend his administrations, and I was now and then prevail'd on to do so, once for five Sundays successively. Had he been in my opinion a good preacher, perhaps I might have continued, notwithstanding the occasion I had for the Sunday's leisure in my course of study; but his discourses were chiefly either polemic arguments, or explications of the peculiar doctrines of our sect, and were all to me very dry, uninteresting, and unedifying, since not a single moral principle was inculcated or enforc'd, their aim seeming to be rather to make us Presbyterians than good citizens. Big enough context for ya, Buffman? Gee, I guess he wouldn't have visited this web site, given this statement: "This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induc'd me to avoid all discourse that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; Rad {edited by Toto to fix tag} [ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

11-06-2002, 07:24 PM	#132
randomsyllable Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: somewhere in Canada Posts: 188	Yes Radorth, your quote is indicative of Franklin being a Deist. Something that we are not debating. However, your increasingly spurious claims made here and in other threads are starting to wear a bit.

11-06-2002, 07:51 PM	#134
gravitybow Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Washington, NC Posts: 1,696	Radorth,I believe you have readily offered a Barton/Franklin quote, which I have kindly accepted. The one about lack of atheists. Do I have to enclose two box tops and a SASE to get it? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

11-06-2002, 08:44 PM	#139
fromtheright Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 633	TWIMC, will be gone for the next week plus. Looking forward to getting back to this.

11-06-2002, 08:48 PM	#140
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The quote about the rarity of atheism in America is from a pamplet recruiting Europeans to colonize America, reprinted here: <a href="http://users.ev1.net/~holliser/Agora/text/Philosophy%20&%20Politics/Franklin/Remove.html" target="_blank">"Information for Those Who Would Remove to America "</a> It is descriptive advertising written around 1782. It describes American as a middle class society where you can get ahead if you work. Nothing in it says that atheists or infidels or dissenters should be expelled from America, or are not welcome. I am not fully conversant with Deism, but I believe that there were Deists who believed in a God, which they sometimes called Divine Providence, and who believed in an afterlife. They sometimes used language like Christians, but they did not believe in the divinity of Jesus or in the revealed truth of the Bible.

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