Freethought & Rationalism Archive

winstonjen · 06-01-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joedad

Why did your god kill children, babies and toddles in the Flood? Are these souls in Heaven? Why did your god kill them if he loved them?

Magus has already answered this question, and I'm pretty sure he'll repeat it here - "He killed them to bring them to heaven so he wouldn't have to condemn them if he let them live."

So why the slow, painful death? Why not take their souls painlessly? Those questions were asked, and I don't think Magus answered them.

Tenspace · 06-01-2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joedad
Why aren't our prisons filled with non-christians and atheists?

Sorry to go off-topic for a moment, but joedad, I've been looking for references to studies corollating violent crimes and religious belief. Might you know where to look?

Thanks,

Ten

Bumble Bee Tuna · 06-01-2003, 11:24 PM

I know I'm not a moderator, but I have a humble suggestion.

Remember all those posts about Magus missing the point? Here's "The Point".

This thread is not for arguing over the questions people might post. This is a topic for atheists, asking what questions work best for atheists to get fundamentalists thinking. Consider it one of the base assumptions of the thread: The Bible is false. We're not here to debate it.

This thread could essentially be considered a support thread, for all intents and purposes.

None of this was explicitly stated, but can be deduced by analyzing the thread. It was kind of made evident when chekmate said "Magus, as a favor to me, could you please stay out of this? You are derailing the topic...". While this quote doesn't mention anyone but Magus, it certainly doesn't take a whole lot of deduction to realize it would apply to any other people who do the same behavior.

Moral of the post?

If your intent in a post is to debate something related to the veracity/falsehood of some aspect of Christianity, you shouldn't post. This is really for anyone, but mostly to Radorth because as small child would say, "he started it".

I realize I'm not a moderator, but hopefully that doesn't matter. Radorth/Magus and those arguing with them, this isn't the place. If y'all want (Radorth/Magus) feel free to open up a companion thread (call it "Tough Questions Answered" or something) and answer the questions posed in here. But answering them in this thread really seems completely against the stated purpose of the thread.

-B

wade-w · 06-01-2003, 11:43 PM

Thank you, BBT. I was going to post something about staying on topic, but you beat me to it.

Everyone: consider this an endorsement of BBT's post.

Goober · 06-02-2003, 04:59 AM

I like to point people to Deuteronomy 25:11-12 (I think that's the right passage), and ask them why they disobey this direct commandment from god.

Soul Invictus · 06-02-2003, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dargo
Personally I would recommend focusing on the Messianic prophecies as quoted by the new testament authors. There are plenty of extremely embarasing in your face contradictions here. Unlike old testament contradictions, these can not be dismissed as being trivial areas of the Bible, since apologests are always braging about how Jesus "fulfilled" all of these prophecies. A thorough study of prophecies is what finally killed my last vestiges of my faith. This would be an excellent topic for a future debate on this board if we can ever find a reasonably knowledgeable christian willing to tackle this subject.

I'd be interested in that as well...the gospel differences and all. Please let me know if anything comes of it.

joedad · 06-02-2003, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Bumble Bee Tuna:
Moral of the post?

If your intent in a post is to debate something related to the veracity/falsehood of some aspect of Christianity, you shouldn't post. This is really for anyone, but mostly to Radorth because as small child would say, "he started it".

I realize I'm not a moderator, but hopefully that doesn't matter. Radorth/Magus and those arguing with them, this isn't the place. If y'all want (Radorth/Magus) feel free to open up a companion thread (call it "Tough Questions Answered" or something) and answer the questions posed in here. But answering them in this thread really seems completely against the stated purpose of the thread.

Rad certainly doesn't agree with all aspects of what is perceived as being christian. Perhaps he would like to submit his own list of questions. That I'd like to see. Magus too. Should be most interesting.

joedad · 06-02-2003, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tenspace
Sorry to go off-topic for a moment, but joedad, I've been looking for references to studies corollating violent crimes and religious belief. Might you know where to look?

Thanks,

Ten

Here's a link that might help frame the issue.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

Sorry, but its the best I can do with a quick search. Just scanning, I didn't pick up anything about violent crime in the article.

iccarus · 06-03-2003, 02:53 PM

First off I would like to caution you as an Ex-fundie that they are in for a very long road and many will not make it the entire way. Most of the people who started questioning the bible ended up as liberal christians or in that stage that I have seen called "Cherry picking" where they choose what pieces they want to believe and discard others. That aside on to the question.

I was gradually lead "astray" when I started asking questions that no one could answer without playing the "More Faith Necessay" or "Great Mystery" card. This started with questions like "where do people who die without ever even hearing at all about Jesus." People who believe will best start from where they are currently and go from there. Don't start with the stuff that atheists commonly discuss. You have to start where they are, Innocent questions that they can't answer are often effective.

I also asked questions about evil and the nature of god. If he was good then why did he murder? Why punish innocents. Do they really think that they are inheriently Evil, I have found that most people won't think that they are evil, many will say that they are sinful but will stop before saying evil. I might also recommend the web site exchristians.com they have deconversion stories.
Iccarus

Walkindude42 · 06-03-2003, 03:22 PM

The best way to get someone thinking about their religion, is to ask them "Why".

Why are you a "<fill-in-the-blank>"?

The variety of possible answers to this question is mind-numbing. You must be prepared to follow the answer given with a new and pertinent question. It's a little like psychoanalysis.

This is only a starting point, but I think
you 'll find as you encouter more and more people, that there are many individual reasons for adhering to any religion. Because of the variety of reasons for adhering to religion, there is no perfect de-conversion argument.

06-03-2003, 02:53 PM	#39
iccarus Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: california Posts: 6	As an Ex- Fundie First off I would like to caution you as an Ex-fundie that they are in for a very long road and many will not make it the entire way. Most of the people who started questioning the bible ended up as liberal christians or in that stage that I have seen called "Cherry picking" where they choose what pieces they want to believe and discard others. That aside on to the question. I was gradually lead "astray" when I started asking questions that no one could answer without playing the "More Faith Necessay" or "Great Mystery" card. This started with questions like "where do people who die without ever even hearing at all about Jesus." People who believe will best start from where they are currently and go from there. Don't start with the stuff that atheists commonly discuss. You have to start where they are, Innocent questions that they can't answer are often effective. I also asked questions about evil and the nature of god. If he was good then why did he murder? Why punish innocents. Do they really think that they are inheriently Evil, I have found that most people won't think that they are evil, many will say that they are sinful but will stop before saying evil. I might also recommend the web site exchristians.com they have deconversion stories. Iccarus

06-03-2003, 03:22 PM	#40
Walkindude42 New Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Franklin, NC Posts: 3	A starting point for further discussion The best way to get someone thinking about their religion, is to ask them "Why". Why are you a "<fill-in-the-blank>"? The variety of possible answers to this question is mind-numbing. You must be prepared to follow the answer given with a new and pertinent question. It's a little like psychoanalysis. This is only a starting point, but I think you 'll find as you encouter more and more people, that there are many individual reasons for adhering to any religion. Because of the variety of reasons for adhering to religion, there is no perfect de-conversion argument.

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06-01-2003, 11:24 PM	#33
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	I know I'm not a moderator, but I have a humble suggestion. Remember all those posts about Magus missing the point? Here's "The Point". This thread is not for arguing over the questions people might post. This is a topic for atheists, asking what questions work best for atheists to get fundamentalists thinking. Consider it one of the base assumptions of the thread: The Bible is false. We're not here to debate it. This thread could essentially be considered a support thread, for all intents and purposes. None of this was explicitly stated, but can be deduced by analyzing the thread. It was kind of made evident when chekmate said "Magus, as a favor to me, could you please stay out of this? You are derailing the topic...". While this quote doesn't mention anyone but Magus, it certainly doesn't take a whole lot of deduction to realize it would apply to any other people who do the same behavior. Moral of the post? If your intent in a post is to debate something related to the veracity/falsehood of some aspect of Christianity, you shouldn't post. This is really for anyone, but mostly to Radorth because as small child would say, "he started it". I realize I'm not a moderator, but hopefully that doesn't matter. Radorth/Magus and those arguing with them, this isn't the place. If y'all want (Radorth/Magus) feel free to open up a companion thread (call it "Tough Questions Answered" or something) and answer the questions posed in here. But answering them in this thread really seems completely against the stated purpose of the thread. -B

06-01-2003, 11:43 PM	#34
wade-w Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Silver City, New Mexico Posts: 1,872	Thank you, BBT. I was going to post something about staying on topic, but you beat me to it. Everyone: consider this an endorsement of BBT's post.

06-02-2003, 04:59 AM	#35
Goober Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 1,202	I like to point people to Deuteronomy 25:11-12 (I think that's the right passage), and ask them why they disobey this direct commandment from god.

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