Rational BAC

This predestination business seems to be predicated on the idea that God is omniscient.

Well He could be omniscient only up until the present time. Or He could be able to see into the future, but choose not to sometimes.

God can do anything He damned well pleases or He could not be God. God does not even have to be rational or consistent.

I never believed in predestination anyway-----so is moot for me.

NOGO

The set of words and sentences that make up your "previous post" does not in any way answer the question asked.
The fact that you do not see that is, indeed, very telling.

You answer that God wanted mankind to have proof of his love etc.

But even with this element in the equation the question asked by AJ113 still stands. Why bother going through the experiement since God knows the outcome already. You are implying that the proof of God's love may change someone's mind, but since God knows this change of mind as well then there are no surprises. God can still, now as from the very start, proceed with final judgement.

We humans experiment because we do not know the outcome. Why would God experiment to see who will be saved?

God can create creatures that will love him.
If He is experiementing then he is not sure whether man will love Him or not? Otherwise this experiment is a farce.

I hope that I succeded in explaining the question.
Perhaps now you can answer it.

Opera Nut

Predestination sounds like the mechanistic universe/watchmaker theory of the world, and I don't know why Christians wouldn't want the God-as-watchmaker theory to rule.
Since they don't believe in the Big Bang without a cause.

AJ113

Thanks NOGO. Sometimes I feel like I'm typing in a foreign language judging by the replies I get from christians. It's good to know that my post is understandable, even if I didn't get a reasonable reply.

BadBadBad

RationalBAC, you don't believe in predestination. Neither do we, and that's the point we're trying to make. You can't have free will and predestination. They are contradictory at a minimum, but it's very clear that the Bible explicitly states that God predestines us to salvation, mercy, damnation and dishonor. It's not just one verse, but many.

I don't understand how you can dismiss it. This isn't just some trivial aspect of the Bible. If the Bible doctrine about predestination is not true, not inspired by God, why is it in the Bible? This is supposedly the divine word of God on the most important topic to mankind, salvation and the eternal grace of God. How can this just be incorrect? If it's not the word of God, then it's the work of man. I see that work as a sales job. If they were selling "God" (ie themselves), then how can you not view the rest of the doctrine on salvation in the same light?

BadBadBad

You'd think we are using a foreign language. I don't know how many times here lately that I've had to pull out the dictionary and post definitions of basic every day words. It's like we're interrogating Bill Clinton on sex in the White House.

I understood your question, and thanks NOGO for your help. Don't expect an answer from the christians though. You're not going to find it in previous posts or any future posts. Predestination and omniscience are paradoxes. The Bible is pure nonsense. There is no god, and we have free will do what ever we want.

Stephen T-B

(This isn’t intended to start a new controversy raging, and I submit it here merely as an observation, in passing, but Bretec, do we really have “free will to do what ever we want”?)

It is crucial to the Christians that we do, otherwise how can they excuse their God for punishing us ?
But I think Free Will is a fiction; a delusion. I think our ability to exercise it starts diminishing from about the age of one onwards as we become increasingly constrained by a combination of social and cultural norms and our developing psychological responses to the myriad experiences handed out by life. In fact, I think that pretty soon on, every conscious choice we make is moulded by the person we have become. I even wonder if as simple a thing as choosing a tie - unless done arbitrarily - is an exercise in free will. For instance, I know that my choice is made within rigid parameters which are determined by a great chunk of the things which make me Me.
Those who doubt me should analyse their actions during the course of a day, and consider at the end of it if they could have done anything other than that which they did.
Frankly, I very much doubt if anyone has ever voluntarily done anything which s/he thought might incur a cost which was likely to outweigh the anticipated reward. S/he won’t have done it because doing so is impossible.
Isn’t it?

Tarnaak

Freewill and an Omniscient God are a paradox only to those who cannot understand it.

God did not lay out a rigid program like someone gave an example of earlier.
Freedom to choose is just that. You are free to choose whatever path you so desire. God just happens to know what choice you are going to make. It's not a paradox.

The paradox is in your mind. You are trying to understand how God can know what your choice already is, when it is you who should be considering why you made the choice you did.

Lets say you are given a choice of A, B, C, or D. Which do you choose? You have a 25% chance of choosing any of them and a 100% chance of choosing all of them. But you choose based on information that you have received during your life.

The nice thing is, you can always go back and choose again with no penalty. But in order to make the choice, you have to understand why you made the choice. Was it mis-information? How do you know? How does one possibly fathom that which is of God using the simple human mind that one has?

If you can say with absolutly no doubt that God does not exsist, then you have achieved the ultimate truth. But if you cannot, then your soul's possible state for eternity is in jeopardy.

Atheists choose not to believe because there is no "evidence" of God that they can understand.

Christians believe because God is all around us and there is no evidence that he doesn't exsist.

The only flaw in the Bible, is between the Bible and the hand that holds it....

AJ113

Nope, Christians believe because:

1. Their parents told them to, and/or
2. They are afraid of the consequences of not believing.

The only flaw in the Bible, is between the Bible and the hand that holds it....

The only flaw in theistic faith is in the mind that holds it.

Mageth

Freewill and an Omniscient God are a paradox only to those who cannot understand it.

So I reckon you, being of great understanding, are gonna explain it to us?

God did not lay out a rigid program like someone gave an example of earlier.
Freedom to choose is just that. You are free to choose whatever path you so desire. God just happens to know what choice you are going to make. It's not a paradox.

You're right, it's not. If god knows what choice I'm going to make, then I can only make the choice god knows I'm going to make. I can't make any other choice. It couldn't be any clearer.

The paradox is in your mind.

The "paradox" is right there before your nose.

You are trying to understand how God can know what your choice already is, when it is you who should be considering why you made the choice you did.

You say it a bit later; I "choose based on information that {I} have received during {my} life"; (there's possibly other factors). That's at least a soft deterministic claim, by the way.

Lets say you are given a choice of A, B, C, or D. Which do you choose? You have a 25% chance of choosing any of them

Not necessarily; the probabilities are typically weighted by other factors (e.g., information that I have received during my life). Seldom is there an even probability that I'd make any one of a set of choices.

But if god knows I'm going to make choice A, the probability that I'll make choice A is 1.0. It's set before I choose; I cannot choose B, C or D.

and a 100% chance of choosing all of them.

I think you might have meant a 100% chance that I'd choose one from among them.

But you choose based on information that you have received during your life.

True, but there are possibly other factors as input (e.g., there may be a genetic predisposition). And that's a form of determinism.

The nice thing is, you can always go back and choose again with no penalty.

One can never "go back" and choose again. And if one could go back and choose again, to exactly the same conditions without knowledge of the previous attempt at a choice, one would make the same choice! Remember, you choose based on information that you have received during your life (among other factors). Those factors combine to "make" the decision for you.

But in order to make the choice, you have to understand why you made the choice.

??? You're losing me here. You said earlier that "you choose based on information that you have received during your life."

Was it mis-information? How do you know? How does one possibly fathom that which is of God using the simple human mind that one has?

So is the choice mine, or God's? You're still losing me here.

And if one cannot "possibly fathom that which is of God using the simple human mind that one has", what's with these statements you make in a bit about "God is all around us and there is no evidence that he doesn't exsist" and that "the only flaw in the Bible, is between the Bible and the hand that holds it"? If we can't "possibly fathom that which is of God" with the minds he gave us, how the hell could he ever expect us to recognize evidence of Him or grasp the "word" he supposedly gave us??? And how can you, with your "simple human mind" that cannot "possibly fathom that which is of God", make a statement such as "freewill and an Omniscient God are a paradox only to those who cannot understand it"? According to you no one should be able to understand anything about God.

If you can say with absolutly no doubt that God does not exsist, then you have achieved the ultimate truth. But if you cannot, then your soul's possible state for eternity is in jeopardy.

You've lost me even more. Are you saying that "God does not exist" is the ultiimate truth? Are you saying strong atheists will be OK but agnostics and weak atheists are doomed???

Atheists choose not to believe because there is no "evidence" of God that they can understand.

No, as an atheist, I don't choose not to believe. That wouldn't even make sense if I saw no evidence of God (which I don't). I lack belief because there's no evidence to support belief. There's no "choice" to my lack of belief; it follows naturally from the lack of evidence.

Christians believe because God is all around us and there is no evidence that he doesn't exsist.

Well, of course there's no evidence that god doesn't exist. There's a lack of evidence that god does exist. Believers see things and say "Look, that's evidence of God!" Of course they do; if you believe in a creator god, everything appears as evidence of that god.

The only flaw in the Bible, is between the Bible and the hand that holds it....

That and the 66 books contained therein.

But remember, you said "How does one possibly fathom that which is of God using the simple human mind that one has?" I would assume this also applies to the "flawless" bible.