doodad

I think there's a few hundred million reasons to believe that people carry a concept of a god or faith object in their minds, but beyond that I cannot offer any solid support for the existence of one supreme being. It appears that different cultures, different faiths, and even different people have differing concepts of what their faith object or god consists of. Is the glass half full or half empty? I say it's half full because the fact remains that millions of people believe there's a god out there somewhere. To them it actual existence in the material sense is largely irrelevant because faith or belief in a supernatural god is not based upon reason or proof in the first place.

Let's assume that God does not exist. What does that buy us?
It makes a bunch of people look pretty superstitious, but the world still turns doesn't it. So what is the objective? To prove the non-existence of God or to criticize those who believe he does exist?

Does his existence really matter. Not much apparently, but the belief that he exists can bring down tall buildings. Maybe we need to stop harping on a point that cannot be proven either way and start talking about people's beliefs, that is, what they believe, why they believe, and the purpose that believing serves.

I find the rest of this nonsense very entertaining but a bit frivolous.

luvluv

Philosoft:

Did any Christian ever say that God must be simeltaneously merciful and just for the specific decision of the destination of your soul? I'm missing the big contradiction here.

Again, it is part of God's justice that a person who asks for mercy must recieve it, regardless of their crime.

God will be just and merciful in granting mercy to those who ask for it, and giving justice to those who, in the end, will not ask for or recieve mercy. Again, what else is he supposed to do?

MrDarwin:

Well, when asked the same question, Jesus said you can know them by their fruits.

I don't know exactly. Ultimately, inasmuch as they all agree that Christ's sacrifice is necessary and believe that salvation is essentially through that act (and they all do) then the nuances are probably less important. (They'd all probably tell you that). Ultimately I'd say you check their beliefs against the Bible and against the witness of God's spirit within yourself. Yes, you would be in a pickle if it was up to me or any human being to totally determine for you what the truth is. But, luckily for you, it ain't up to me. You do have some responsiblity for your own soul and for your own search for the truth.

No.

Probably nothing if my intent was good and I tried my darndest.

God's got an odd habit of being just.

K

luvluv:

It's very common for Christians to say that God exists outside of time in order to tap dance around some sticky omniscience / omnipotence / omnipresence problems. If God does exist out of time, then He must be merciful and just for every decision if He is merciful or just for any decision. This assumes that an atemporal being could even make a decision which is a ridiculous concept in itself.

Long story short - a God existing out of time could not possibly be merciful at times and just at others. That God would exist within time.

7thangel

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Note that these verses are not really figurative speeches, unlike those verses you presented. I believe that you are presenting verses that you do not even understand and presume you are making the right interpretation. In any case, you should be aware that you are responsible for the confusion you are bringing to Chrisitianity in presenting doctrines ignorantly.

Please, try to present first to the atheists your belief before you discuss your disagreement with me. That will be even a wiser move. We must possess wisdom in these things, shouldn't we? I am against other christians but it is foolish to discuss with them in this "website."

God Bless

Darwin26

well could it be that you xians are all hypocites ... all trying to second guess ie interpret different fables ? Can't you see the clearity of your omnipotent savior ... you make yourselves crazy not to mention the rest of humanity...
i would bet that most of the atheists in here are glad you're in your own box reading these comic books trying to impress one another who has the best "eye" on this phantom gawd ... and all you have are these comic book versus to claim your level in the hierarchy between heaven and the deep blue sea...
You are crushed by the weight of your own emptyness ... beneath all this wishful nonsense

Jobar

Darwin26, I don't think it is fair to call Magus or 7thangel hypocrites. Mistaken, yes; even deluded. But I have little doubt that both of them *believe* what they say they do; they are not lying to us purposely.

I've seen theists come here that *were* hypocrites; but, much as I disagree with both of these, and as obvious as I feel it should be to them, that their very disagreements make the error of their beliefs undeniable, I do not feel that hypocrisy is one of their sins.

Darwin26

Main Entry: 1hyp·o·crite Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: hipkrit, usu -id.+V
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Middle English ipocrite, from Old French ypocrite, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokrits actor on the stage, pretender, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
: one who pretends to be what he is not or to have principles or beliefs that he does not have; especially : one who falsely assumes an appearance of virtue or religion

Well Jobar perhaps you are right ... unwittingly they pretend to have this illusorcery resource ...quoting these lil versus ... gives them steroids of grace .... in classic one upsmanship (that's no way to interpret Cod...what were you thinking Sheeeesh)... in this hyper sense of pseudo connection to a supreme diety their all to real human hubris shines through...
Yes they believe as children believe in the tooth fairy
i'll say no more

7thangel

How did you know I am a hypocrite, you knew better of what I am talking about? And suppose I am right, and Maguss accepts it will you still count me a hypocrite?

Well, from the meaning you have given about the word hypocrite, Does it not apply when you "pretend" to be wise?

7thangel

Mageth,

Got your point.

I understand what you are saying. But I speak of the yearning to understand the arguments of PoE because it affects every one of us, either theists, or atheists.

I believe there is sufficient evidence, while you find no sufficient evidence, of God’s existence. That is the problem with inductive reasoning. How can we measure sufficient evidence? The truth is that because of our limited knowledge of God our belief in God is always a hope, even if we see the obvious.

As you said yourself, “We feel the need to add meaning to what otherwise is a Meaningless existence.” What we understand in this world may not suffice us to know the existence of God. But since we feel the need of giving a meaningful existence, and understanding it to be the need of eternal life given of God, it is not irrational to hope for it.

To man himself. We benefit in making sense. Don’t we strive to learn and understand because it is beneficial to us, even beneficial emotionally? If we indeed could make sense then we can achieve to put order in among ourselves. In term of self and as a community.

Agreed.

Well, God gave man wisdom. And does not wisdom makes us to rule over all other created things? The fact is that some are not given that wisdom, and thus cannot appreciate that gift of God.

Wisdom makes us realize of our limited power, and by the same wisdom we resort to finding answer through God.

We, humans, think and able to do and organize what is good for us. God give us the wisdom and wisdom gives us the most amazing experience as living creatures.

So I guess it is not God that is flawed; but the people are flawed. Was not my argument state the necessity of evil to exist? Can you see it yourself that it gives you a better feeling to understand the flaws in men? Does not it make your life purposeful because it gives you a reason to do or to plan? How if by those experiences and gaining understanding God is shaping you to be a ruler, and administrator of human affairs? My point is that you should not base your disbelief of God seeing a flawed system.

Honestly, I guess you have a better perspective of what a real Christian should be. And I guess what is lacking in you right now is to see a miracle directly from God. If you happen to experience it I see you as a great ally. That is, if God will chose you too.

7thangel

Mageth,

Actually it will happen because not all are given to be rulers. Secondly, it is God’s own purpose to shame the wise to show that it is God who gives such wisdom to men. Atheists, who seek after wisdom, were not given to understand God, and the theists, who seek after a sign, were drawn to foolish imaginations. These things were done of God for the purpose of to show that it is Him who makes all things into being. That it is God who chooses whom to rule over the kingdom on the resurrection because it is He himself who gives such abilities and capabilities unto men. This thing already happened with the Gentiles and Jews, and it will happen again in these last times with Christians and unbelievers. In fact, it is already happening.

It is necessity that some be blinded so that we can realize that it is God who gives such knowledge and understanding of Himself. As you can see in the Bible, even those who have the heart to believe Him did not receive grace. This is the election that Paul was preaching. Paul showed the unfairness of God, not because He is practicing favoritism, but to show that it is God who chooses whom He will. That it is God who actually makes men holy, not as if holiness came naturally on men. That is what the robot-inventor relationship is all about. The fact is that without this knowledge, there is never a way in which we can understand God being revealed in the Bible.

If grace is obligatory for God, then grace is not grace. If grace is obligatory, there is a reason that makes us worthy to receive grace. Grace is not given because of justice, as if there is something God had judged in us worthy to deserve us be given grace. Grace is not given because of mercy, as if we all are worthy to be pitied.

Justice and mercy is referring to God’s action unto those chosen alone. God is just for He will fulfill His promise unto the end. And He is merciful, because He made us glorious vessels, being in the image of Him. As the Bible said, “God will have mercy in whom he will have mercy.” Now these words were said not to show unfairness of God but to know who really God is? That in fact, even the greatness of Pharaoh were made of God. Allow me to quote:

Romans 9:15-24
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” 24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The thing is, in a robot-inventor relationship, the inventor is actually free to do everything he wants unto the robot. Although, as God has given us wisdom, we understand that God will not do something crazy on His chosen ones.

My defense on the PoE is that evil is necessity for us to know God. It is necessity that we should have knowledge of good and evil so man could attain to wisdom. Else, we cannot achieve to understand the meaning of our existence.

The problem with theists is that they cannot understand grace. In reality, most theists, if not all, are actually denying grace in their doctrines; for they do not attribute the wholeness of their salvation as God’s work. They always show that somewhere, on man’s part, he is “responsible” to respond. But actually, when man is given wisdom, he will surely respond without feeling the responsibility. Atheists, on the other hand, do not believe in grace. Well, they have to believe first that God exists.

There is a flaw in reasoning on how you describe yourself as robot in the hands of God. For subconsciously, you are “demanding’ worth from your maker, or inventor. The same problem that theists have problem with predestination. But the reality is that it is God himself who makes anyone an unworthy robot. No one among us is worthy at all. The existence of unworthy robots is just a necessity for the worthy robots, the chosen ones, for them to have the verity of knowledge about Godhead. That the evil things, without their existence, man could not come to know his relationship unto God. Thus Paul said, “All things(that means all good and evil in this world) work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” But do not be confused as if it is in our power to chose God, for the preceding verses say, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. “
As I have said the confusion about the godhead is part to knowing more of God. In fact the prophecy even says, “25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.” I believe this will take from place among the atheists.
Why don’t you ponder what an inventor feels about his robots without being influenced of the God-man relationship. And also what is the robot’s any sense of authority over its inventor without being influenced of the man-God relationship. For sure you will realize that you are being irrational on your arguments against me. In a robot-inventor relationship, the inventor is only responsible of himself, of how good he is in performing his action, of the sense of making robots for his benefits, definitely not because he is responsible to the robots. I believe, subconsciously, you re denying these facts because you have fear that you will have no power of getting what you want. But that is a fact that we should admit, and that because that is the truth of the matter. We are just mere dust being shaped of God into glorious beings. And that God is even showing us through the faulty robots of our glorious being as the chosen ones. It is necessary for us to understand these things so we could appreciate our existence. And unless we have a deep understanding of the godhead, we will surely say this is unfair.