Aethari

Glory-

Why should I lighten up? Since when is it acceptable to just make ad hoc opinions about the nature of man and society? You surely don't have to be concerned with proving that silly assertion to me, but if you aren't going to then don't bring it up. If you can't bring yourself to substantiate something upon request, simply don't say it.

Of course, and if we don't see them, we're nothing looking hard enough, right? That doesn't sound like a fallacy, eh?

Unnecessary and irrelevant. If I deny a proposition X, there is no requirement upon me to provide a new proposition Y. I'm not intellectual bound to explain how life started if I deny that God did it, and I'm not bound to explain why Kant wrote just because I reject your nonsense.

Because I'm always bothered when people assert flagrant crap, refuse to back it up, and continue using it? Or do you mean other than that?

Casual sex and premarital sex are not one and the same in definition, but they very often are in practice. I don't know jack about you, other than the fact that you seem to have some ingrained problems with people objecting to your ideas, and your previous mentioned sex-centric view of life.

Lunachick-

I agree, and I never even implied anything to the contrary. Why does everyone who dares to disagree with your group get labelled as either naive, brainwashed, or self-righteous?

Yes, sex education is very important. If everyone used contraceptives when they ought, the world would be a better place. I agree with promoting all of those things. However, you seem to want to remain defiant about premarital sex causing STDs. Arguing that lack of protection->STDs is the same as arguing lack of proper quarantine procedures->The Plague. Contraceptives are a COUNTERMEASURE, they are not some ingrown part of nature. Biologically, STDs exist because of the niche created by premarital sex and promiscuity. You have to be kidding me. Are you that hung up on defending premarital sex at all costs, that you can't even admit the blindingly obvious?

Which I never did, and never implied ought to be done. Couldn't resist jumping on the bandwagon again to label any opposition as simplistic and naive, huh? Post-marital sex can be advocated on the grounds that it far safer for medical reasons. Of course, you can have premarital sex, if you use the proper protection, and feel emotionally at ease with that. The point is that it is enormously doubtful that even an enormously priveledged country like the US would get that far. You talk about Zimbabwe or something, and the chances of your utopic contraceptive fantasy are laughable. You need to accept reality, and realize that human sexuality has to be in compromise with society.

Dangin-

Why are murder and rape not natural impulses? You don't need to tell a person anything, or involve them with any sort of society, in order to see these kinds of attitudes. Murder and rape occur in all societies because it is a universal, albeit normally supressed, byproduct of the human psyche. You don't have to implant the ideas of killing and raping in people.

On a broader note, I'm taking a permanant leave from this thread, don't bother responding to this other than in your minds It is clear enough that no-one is going to accept anything other than a total embrace of premarital sex. Sure, you all admit it's dangerous, but the second it comes to regulating activity? Well, hell no to that, I suppose. We wouldn't want to actually take personal responsibility for our problems, now would we? Instead we're going to talk about education, and condoms, and how it isn't possibility a product of our lifestyles.

Wake up. In an IDEAL world, yes, we would all have oodles of premarital sex with perfect contraceptives, and the world would be a happier place. I don't deny it. That would be awesome. Premarital sex is not wrong, nor is it necessarily irresponsible. Where premarital sex fails is as a broad social prescription that everyone seems to want to make it. It has benefits, and it has problems. Maybe, in 300 years, when we can effectively deal with the problems of STDs in even the most destitute populaces, an open policy on premarital sex would be wholly possible. We are not there.

Compromises are necessary, and human nature is not some sacred ground upon which society may not tread. Of course, I'm quite sure that this is going to get characterized as an anti-sex, naive, religiously indoctrinated idea, now isn't it? God forbid I try to promote a reasonable alternative between extremes. We couldn't have anything but 'us' and 'them', or else all the rhetoric might just fall apart.


~Aethari

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Aethari ]</p>

dangin

No, you are just tilting at windmills.

I think we should regulate against wind. Damn the sun and it's solar power making the atmosphere move around.

lpetrich

I'm sorry if I seem to be fixated on this issue, but there often seems to be a conspiracy of silence about alternative sex acts, like masturbation, oral sex, and so forth.

Masturbation, for example, is the ultimate in safe sex. The only way it can cause pregnancy or spread disease is if one seriously tries to do so.

So should people be encouraged to masturbate if they do not have suitable sex partners? People of both sexes? And one's children?

lunachick

Lesbians don't spread STD's as a rule, either.

GeoTheo

My wife and I abstianed from sex before we were married and enjoy a very active satisfying sex life. We had sex everyday for the first year and eventually reached a point where it was not that big of a deal anymore but we still enjoy it whenever we can, but with less urgency. I feel kind of like, If I can have it whenever I want, maybe tomorrow, no big deal.
Neither of us were virgins though.
We were engaged only for about 6 months. We used to kiss alot but gave it up a couple months before the wedding in order to make the abstinence part not as hard.

tronvillain

Ipetrich:
Well, I assume those things, so I don't usually bring them up.

Glory

Aethari,

just in case you can't resist lurking, Dude, consider decaf. Your diastolic must through the roof.

Glory

Glory

Everyone should be encouraged to masturbate. It is an alternative to intercourse. It's an addendum to intercourse. It's a floor wax and a desert topping. It's a healthy activity and it's damn relaxing.

Oral sex is also something I believe should be encouraged although I don't think it's for children. Children should not be involved in sexual touching that involves people other than themselves.

Oral sex is wonderfully intimate and satisfying. I do not know it to be substantially less risky than intercourse, though. can you elaborate?

Glory

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

The Other Michael

This may be a bit picky, but it looks to me that some of you really want to be using "extra-marital" instead of "pre-marital" in your discussions, since you seem to be taking exception to the former, of which the latter is a subset.

cheers,
Michael
MF&P Moderator, First Class
(and quite STD-free after nearly 24 years of monogamous pre-marital sex, a possible state which seems to be ignored by some of those in the discussion)

dk

dk: I’ve brought up several serious issues concerning premarital sex, to which you responded with ad hominem attacks, ooohhhs & ahhhhhs, feigned trauma, rationalizations and melodramatic personal antidotes.

dk: I have no idea how many abortions or children you have had, but they’re about a million women a year that do abort, the vast majority being unplanned pregnancies. Its delusional to suggest birth control is reliable, whatever your personal experience. Rationalize all you want but sexual intercourse remains an act of procreation.
I have no idea how many men you bedded before or after your husband, I assume more than one. People that practice premarital sex as a rule bed their husband keeping marriage as an afterthought. I’ve made no assumptions.

dk: Don’t clip a thread then ask to repeat a reference. I asked...
1) Do you think its good for men/women to use others as objects for sexual gratification.
2) I explained what a sex object is, but here’s a google search that offers several <a href="http://www.xrefer.com/results.jsp?shelf=&term=sex+object&Submit.x=8&Subm it.y=12" target="_blank"> perspectives </a> . If the question is too difficult, you’re under no obligation to answer, some people become so dehumanized by materialism they don’t know the difference between an object and a person, so the concept of treating a loved one as person, as opposed to an object becomes foreign.

dk: In this thread you’ve alternately described loosing your virginity as (I paraphrase) “high impact aerobics after not working out for 5 years”. and an experience you “decided never to have sex again after the first time.” What you’ve described is a traumatic sexual experience, so either you’re being melodramatic or you were raped. People who love one anther take great care not to hurt one another. I’m not sure why this seems foreign to you, I can only guess you’ve been abused sexually.

dk: Either you’re being pretensions or are genuinely clueless. In either case the above questions are beyond the scope of this thread, you need to talk to a marriage councilor or divorce lawyer. When a couple gets married they assume all kinds of rights from their spouse, and obligations too their spouse.

dk: Chastity practices self discipline as a testament of self worth in relationship to others. A young person able to value and discipline themselves possesses the fortitude and self worth to avoid drugs. A person without self-worth or self-discipline finds a multitude of reasons to accommodate drugs.

dk: No I didn’t.

dk: You offer a rationalization that is fundamentally inequitable. The vast majority of women until the industrial age worked on rural farms and had little use or interest in the devices of high fashion, like corsettes. Second, the corset industry of the 17th Century in scale and magnitude to the cosmetics, fashion, liposuction, implants, high heels, diet pills, steroids and other mutilations modern women pay to suffer today. Third, with the resources it takes to put on a Super Bowl Sunday Michelangelo could have painted a thousand Sistine Ceilings. Even more significant women today know just how dangerous and short lived these tortures are, yet are still compelled to comply.

dk: Really I wasn’t aware shot gun wedding were that big a problem.
___________ . . 1970 . 1997
Two parents . . 85 . . 77
Mother only . . 11 . . 24
Father only. . . 1 . . 4
No parent . . .. 3 . . 4

58% of the families living below the poverty line are parented by single mother head of household.
In 1960 5.3% of children were born to unmarried mothers.
In 1996 32% of children were born to unmarried mothers.
I think you’re about 40 years behind the times Glory, its not shotgun weddings women suffer today, its poverty, the threat of poverty, and the threat of poverty for one’s entire family.

Glory: You made no mention of teenagers in your original question. You made no mention of deadbeat dads or rape of any kind. You asked only how I feel if the father of my child asked for a DNA test. What has that got to do with any of these things? Stop dodging my questons. It would upset me very much. What do you get out of my answer?[/quote]

dk: If you got pregnant I doubt your husband would request a DNA test, but if he did then he’s an asshole. By law the kid is his responsibility as your husband, and push come to shove the courts will hold his feet to the fire. Now, when an unplanned pregnancy occurs after premarital sex the court have no framework to work from except the birth certificate. The first words on everyone’s lips begin, “Who is the father?”. Why?, because premarital sex leaves the baby uncovered! If the young pregnant woman has been promiscuous she will lie 99% of the time, and fix paternity on the most gullible of her suitors. What began as an act of premarital sex has now become a runaway train where two maybe three families have been put in harms way, and a baby’s life hangs in the balance.

dk: I’ve haven’t insulted you, or condemned anyone. When you put your personal experience on the table in a public discussion, your experience becomes the subject matter. You’ve made a judgment about your own experience, don’t blame me.