Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ed · 08-19-2002, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B:
Religious folk talk about their worldview meaning they’ve an explanation for what we are here for, where we come from and where we are going.
Ed knows the answer to these questions, and no doubt many more.
He also knows when to stop probing those answers, which is why he is able to continue believing them.
There’s something to do with simplicity v. complexity here: religion offers simple answers, but I am now convinced that the complex system of which we are part will always defy Human understanding. Man will NEVER know the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything, and for me that is an immensely attractive idea. So my world view as an atheist / rationalist (if it can be called that) embraces complexity.
Ed’s world view - or should I say temperament? - rejects it.

Umm.... Steve, the only way you could know this is if you are omniscient. Christians dont come anywhere near claiming this and yet here is an atheist doing so....interesting. BTW complex systems can only come from minds.

Ed · 08-19-2002, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gooch's dad:
Ed,

Besides your unsupported nonsense about 'laws of logic' and uncaused causes, I'll say this about your 'rational explanation for the existence of the universe'--[/b]

Hello Dad. I would hardly call the laws of logic "nonsense". Without them science is impossible.

[b]

Quote:

dad: You haven't explained anything. To say 'God did it' has absolutely zero explanatory power. Let me use my favorite analogy.

Your teenager brings home a problem from their science class, and asks you for help: "Dad, how does electricity work to make a light bulb light?". What if your answer were "It works because I go and turn on the light switch, and the light bulb lights up."

Is that actually an explanation of electricity? No, you've simply said that some being turns a switch and it happens. That is exactly how you're trying to explain how the universe is rational.

So you have explained absolutely nothing. Thanks for playing, try again.

No, I am saying something that fits the characteristics of God caused the universe. Your analogy is faulty. A better analogy would be my teen studying the effect,ie the lit light bulb and then determining what would the cause would be. Like what could produce the heat and why is the bulb plugged into an outlet, and etc. The existence of God is determined by studying the characteristics of the largest effect known, ie the universe.

08-20-2002, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Ed
If morality is manmade then does that mean that your morality and Hitler's are equivalent? If not, why?

Hitler was a product of the Chrisitan society just like you and I are.
In that sense his morality and ours are equivalent.
When we talk about Hitler we think about genocide.
What about the genocides in the Bible ordered by Yahweh himself.
Bible morality does not exclude genocides.

You failed to answer my other post.
I repeat it here.

Quote:

Ed
But most of the scientific evidence points to the universe being an effect and therefore requiring a cause. And the Christian God fits the characteristics for that cause.

Really! and which evidence is that?

Here is one basic law of physics in this universe.

"Energy/matter is neither created nor destroyed."

Given this basic immutable law then this universe cannot be an effect of anything. All that we have ever observed is energy changing form.

So, what evidence are you talking about?

Ed · 08-21-2002, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
Although we've departed from an earlier tangent, I'll go back to it briefly:

Atheism isn't a worldview because it makes no claims about anything other than the existence of god. As a worldview it would be problematic because it makes no claims, one way or the other, about the world.

To get on my soap-box: when many attack "atheism" as a worldview, they are really attacking metaphysical naturalism. It is reasonable to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of metaphysical naturalism as a worldview, because it is, in fact, a worldview.

So is that what the quote in the OP was getting at? The failings of naturalism as a worldview? If so, lets use the right terminology.

It makes no more sense to say "atheism has serious problems as a worldview" than it does to say "mathematics has serious problems as a cake recipe."

Jamie

While my terminology may not be 100% correct, most ordinary people equate atheism with metaphysical naturalism. I was just trying to get ordinary people into this discussion not necessarily any self styled philosophers or professional philosophers.

GunnerJ · 08-21-2002, 08:43 PM

Quote:

While my terminology may not be 100% correct, most ordinary people equate atheism with metaphysical naturalism. I was just trying to get ordinary people into this discussion not necessarily any self styled philosophers or professional philosophers.

Translation: "I dont have a clue what I'm talking about, and was just trying to appeal to the lowest common intellectual denominator."

Of course, you won't come out and say that, so you euphimize this sentiment up by saying that your "terminology" "may not be" "100% correct," (hint: it isn't even 1% correct), and then try to off-handedly say that you're "just plain folks" and your incorrect assumptions about atheists are justified because lots of other people share the same error, and then obliquely call Jamie a snob ("self styled philosopher") for insisting on correct terminology and not submiting to your popular error in the guise of populist appeal.

Just to clarify things.

Starboy · 08-22-2002, 09:36 AM

Hmmmm, I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him debate. Oh well, have a nice time Mr. Ed.

Starboy

Ed · 08-22-2002, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy:


Hi Ed,

At last we debate. Thanks for responding to my post. You appear to jump to conclusions easily. The chair you sit on is also incapable of providing rational explanations, does that make it irrational? As I stated in my previous post I am an a-theist. I mean that in the sense of without theism. As such it is not a worldview but more like a description. I call myself an a-theist in the same way that I would call the sky blue. It is purely descriptive and makes no claims on its inner workings, directions or purpose. You appear to have a personal understanding of the word. Perhaps you could share it with me?[/b]

See my post above about how I am using the combined terms "atheistic worldview".

[b]

Quote:

lp: Of course science doesn’t tell me if I can cheat on my taxes. That is just plain silly Ed. It is the law of the land that informs me that I should not cheat on my taxes. It is those same laws that set out my rights and those of animals. I am surprised you do not know this. Look it up, you will find that laws are created by man for men. If animals want laws they can get together and make their own. Ed, you are scaring me, you appear to be completely unaware of the laws of the land. Ok, make a note of this, if you rape a woman you are breaking the law and if they catch you, you will be locked up. Your comment does make me wonder why you are fixated on raping women. Are you a sex offender? It wouldn't surprise me, the majority of sex offenders are Christians.

Starboy

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]

So you get your morality from the government? If the government told you that jews and christians were rapists and that they should be exterminated, would go along with the extermination program and even join in? If not, why?

And your little jab at christians in your last comment shows very shallow thinking. Christianity is a life of action AND words. Yes, most people in prison CLAIM to be Christians, but just saying I am car doesnt make me one. If I dont behave like a car or look like a car then I am probably not one. Real practicing Christians go to church regularly. And studies have shown that regular churchgoers are much more law abiding than non-churchgoers irrespective of how they identify themselves. In other words, rapists are practical atheists even though they claim to be christians, IOW they live as if morality is manmade, ie that if they think rape is moral and engage in it then it is.

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Ed ]

Bree · 08-22-2002, 08:57 PM

Quote:

In other words, rapists are practical atheists even though they claim to be christians, IOW they live as if morality is manmade, ie that if they think rape is moral and engage in it then it is.

I can't believe I just read this. I find this analogy so terribly offensive I don't even have words to sum up how I feel. Obviously you know nothing about rape, and I'd really rather you hold off on using such a sensitive subject as a strawman metaphor.

The man who assulted me as a child was was the best Christian I'd ever met. He followed the Bible 100% - even did his best to follow all the rules in the Old Testament, too, as far as he could. He is an upright Christian man who believes that sexual assault is wrong - he knows that Satan is out there to tempt the righteous and that, after succumbing to his evil, you can only ask forgiveness

.

NOGO · 08-24-2002, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Ed
But most of the scientific evidence points to the universe being an effect and therefore requiring a cause. And the Christian God fits the characteristics for that cause.

I guess we will never know what evidence you are talking about.

Starboy · 08-24-2002, 04:57 PM

Hi Ed,

Thanks for responding to my post. What makes you think I get my morality from the government? Exactly what are morals Ed? Based on previous posts there is a good chance we do not share a common definition. Would you be so kind as to share your definitions of morals with me?

As far as jabbing at Christians, I show the same kindness you show to a-theists. What goes around comes around Ed. It appears that you have been empowered to determine who is a Christian and who is not. Who gave you that power? Ed, how do I know that you are a Christian? From your posts I am beginning to wonder.

Starboy

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08-22-2002, 09:36 AM	#66
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Hmmmm, I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him debate. Oh well, have a nice time Mr. Ed. Starboy

08-24-2002, 04:57 PM	#70
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Hi Ed, Thanks for responding to my post. What makes you think I get my morality from the government? Exactly what are morals Ed? Based on previous posts there is a good chance we do not share a common definition. Would you be so kind as to share your definitions of morals with me? As far as jabbing at Christians, I show the same kindness you show to a-theists. What goes around comes around Ed. It appears that you have been empowered to determine who is a Christian and who is not. Who gave you that power? Ed, how do I know that you are a Christian? From your posts I am beginning to wonder. Starboy

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