Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oolon Colluphid · 07-19-2002, 03:39 AM

Excreationist: you�re thinking too literally

1. The tales may well have become garbled down generations till they were written down.

2. There is obviously infiltration of ideas from other creation �myths� from the region (ie, perhaps, different versions of the same original story). More garbling and insertions, deletions and inversions (sound like something else?

).

3. The overall point of it, as an allegory, would then be simply that �God created�. Not in precise detail, but as an overall point to get across.

4. And anyway, it has to also function as a tale that the Hebrews could easily remember and pass on. It�s the moral of the tale, if you will, that was being conveyed in it, not precise details. A God-inspired Aesopian fable.

Of course I don�t believe this myself. But theists are allowed let god get involved if they want, provided it doesn�t contradict scientific findings. So it�s misdirected, under that scheme, to break down something that wasn�t meant literally in the first place into its components, and then complain that they�re not individually literally true.

Cheers, Oolon

GeoTheo · 07-19-2002, 06:57 AM

GTX,
There are many Christians who believe in evolution. I base that on the fact that they say they are trusting Christ as their Savior and also state that they believe in evolution. I have no reason to second guess their salvation.
I do however, think that they may have some inconsistencies in their doctrinal beliefs.
For example the fall, sin and mans relationship to God before and after accepting Christ.
If there was no fall then there could not logically be a reason to be saved and a way of changing ones position before God.
However, my question was not wheather a Christian can believe in evolution in respect to how it affects his Christianity but rather how it would affect his evolution. This forum is obviously not sympathetic to Christianity but I figured I could gain some insights as to the Science side of it and also the broad range of experience posters here have. I think I have. I think I will post on a Large Christian message board like C.A.R.M. for the theological ramifications of a belief in evolution.
Thanks all esp. Win Ace. As far as the questions adressed to me I am not sure at this point.

excreationist · 07-19-2002, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:
Excreationist: you�re thinking too literally

I'm saying that from a literary point of view, they appear to part of the narrative of Genesis - and are not poetry, etc.

Quote:

1. The tales may well have become garbled down generations till they were written down.

If that was garbled then anything in the Bible could have been garbled. I've never heard of any Christians say that the creation story was garbled.

Quote:

2. There is obviously infiltration of ideas from other creation �myths� from the region (ie, perhaps, different versions of the same original story). More garbling and insertions, deletions and inversions (sound like something else?

).

If Christians admitted to that they might as well believe that many Jesus stories were borrowed from elsewhere, etc.

Quote:

3. The overall point of it, as an allegory, would then be simply that �God created�. Not in precise detail, but as an overall point to get across.

Why would God say that it was created in six days with a specific day order that is incorrect? It would be better for God to just say that he created those lists - without giving a timeframe. If God needed to use a 7 day week (as an example for us) he could say that it was in *rememberance* for the things he had already created. (Implying that the universe is more than a few days older than Adam)

Quote:

4. And anyway, it has to also function as a tale that the Hebrews could easily remember and pass on. It�s the moral of the tale, if you will, that was being conveyed in it, not precise details. A God-inspired Aesopian fable.

Having certain things on certain days is unnecessarily confusing if the only message is to say that "God made everything" - and since the creation order is wrong, it results in less knowledge since I don't see any mention in the Bible that early Genesis is just a fable (see <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1316.asp" target="_blank">that AiG article</a>)

Quote:

Of course I don�t believe this myself. But theists are allowed let god get involved if they want, provided it doesn�t contradict scientific findings. So it�s misdirected, under that scheme, to break down something that wasn�t meant literally in the first place into its components, and then complain that they�re not individually literally true.

What about this?

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Exodus+20%3A1%2C11&NIV_version=yes&l anguage=english" target="_blank">Exodus 20:1,11a</a>:

Quote:

And God spoke all these words:

"...For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day..."

If you look at the context, it says that the six day creation is an example for people to follow - to work six days and to rest on the seventh day. It says God made those things in six days. It doesn't say "according to the creation poem God made everything in six days." It states that he made those things in six days - as a fact.

Then there's deja vu in <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Exodus+31%3A12%2C+17&NIV_version=yes &language=english" target="_blank">Exodus 31:12,17</a>:

Quote:

Then the Lord said to Moses, "...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested."

excreationist · 07-19-2002, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
...I do however, think that they may have some inconsistencies in their doctrinal beliefs.
For example the fall, sin and mans relationship to God before and after accepting Christ.
If there was no fall then there could not logically be a reason to be saved and a way of changing ones position before God...

Maybe in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were naive pre-conscious semi-humans and they somehow became conscious and later left the paradise of the jungle and turned to agriculture and herding... it has some problems but it makes some sense.

GeoTheo · 07-19-2002, 08:03 AM

Ex:
I have heard Christians say that the Genesis account was practically plagiarism from other creation myths. I am not saying that is my view.
But one way to look at books of the Bible is in light of its literary genre. Poetry (psalms), historical narrative(Chronicles, Kings) etc.
I think that does not detract from its unity.
As a high Egyptian government official,Moses would have had access to the writings of many cultures including creation myths.
Could he not have written Genesis in the same literary form, and say through inspiration included features that reveal the nature of Yaweh, as opposed to the pagan gods in the lands around him? I have seen Genesis contrasted with other creation myths involving a Universal flood and seen various features pointed out like how in Genesis God closed the door in the Ark wheras in others the Noah like figure closed it. It was said this illustrates God's soverignty.
There is much comparison of Yaweh to other gods in the O.T.

excreationist · 07-19-2002, 08:20 AM

GeoTheo:

Quote:

...But one way to look at books of the Bible is in light of its literary genre. Poetry (psalms), historical narrative(Chronicles, Kings) etc.
I think that does not detract from its unity.

Well if each book contains one kind of genre then Genesis would be narrative. And according to Jesus's genealogies, it would be historical. (Or at least, the people existed) And according to Paul(?) in the book of Hebrews, many of the events in Genesis occured. And those Exodus verses said that God said he created the world in six days... i.e. that the start of Genesis is part of the narrative, and not some poetry. The book of John mixes genres a bit with its symbolism but it is quite obvious.

Quote:

As a high Egyptian government official, Moses would have had access to the writings of many cultures including creation myths.
Could he not have written Genesis in the same literary form, and say through inspiration included features that reveal the nature of Yaweh, as opposed to the pagan gods in the lands around him?

Well in those Exodus verses it says the voice of God said that the Lord made everything in six days. If that voice of God can't be trusted then neither can the other parts of the O.T...

Quote:

I have seen Genesis contrasted with other creation myths involving a Universal flood and seen various features pointed out like how in Genesis God closed the door in the Ark whereas in others the Noah like figure closed it. It was said this illustrates God's sovereignty.

Yeah, the Noah's flood story is pretty good compared to other ones... apparently the Babylonian story involves a cubic boat, etc.

Quote:

There is much comparison of Yahweh to other gods in the O.T.

I didn't think it went into much detail about other gods other than their names... though I haven't read every verse of the Bible...

Oolon Colluphid · 07-19-2002, 09:31 AM

@ excreationist:
*throws up hands*
I try to defend Xian hogwash, and look where it gets me...

Oolon

Stephen T-B · 07-19-2002, 09:56 AM

"As a high Egyptian government official,Moses would have had access to the writings of many cultures including creation myths
Could he not have written Genesis in the same literary form, and say through inspiration included features that reveal the nature of Yaweh, as opposed to the pagan gods in the lands around him?"
Moses write Genesis?
I think you'd find that exceedingly difficult to prove, GeoTheo. Modern scholarship finds no evidence of a significant Jewish presence in Egypt, nor of an Exodus, nor for a Moses. Genesis, it is thought, was written after the Assyrians had destroyed the kingdom of Israel - whenever that was.

Dr Rick · 07-19-2002, 11:33 AM

There is little evidence to support the Biblical account of the Jewish exodus from Egypt or the existence of a great Jewish leader named Moses. It's possible that the mythic exodus story arose from the defeat of the Hyksos, the barbaric ancestors of the Jews that conquered and occupied ancient Egypt for hundreds of years before being expelled. There is some more information to be found <a href="http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/hapiru.html" target="_blank">here</a>, and there have been several threads on this issue including an old one <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000071" target="_blank">here</a> and an active one <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000742" target="_blank">here</a>.

Rick

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]

MOJO-JOJO · 07-19-2002, 12:06 PM

Hey Boys and Girls, it's really very simple, as Dr. Hugh Ross explains here;

<a href="http://www.reasons.org/kidsspace/dinocave.html?main" target="_blank">Evolution does not mean Evilution</a>

As the bible says, to believe in God and Jesus, you have to come before them as [with the mind of] a child.

07-19-2002, 11:33 AM	#39
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	There is little evidence to support the Biblical account of the Jewish exodus from Egypt or the existence of a great Jewish leader named Moses. It's possible that the mythic exodus story arose from the defeat of the Hyksos, the barbaric ancestors of the Jews that conquered and occupied ancient Egypt for hundreds of years before being expelled. There is some more information to be found <a href="http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/hapiru.html" target="_blank">here</a>, and there have been several threads on this issue including an old one <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000071" target="_blank">here</a> and an active one <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000742" target="_blank">here</a>. Rick [ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

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07-19-2002, 03:39 AM	#31
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Excreationist: you�re thinking too literally 1. The tales may well have become garbled down generations till they were written down. 2. There is obviously infiltration of ideas from other creation �myths� from the region (ie, perhaps, different versions of the same original story). More garbling and insertions, deletions and inversions (sound like something else? ). 3. The overall point of it, as an allegory, would then be simply that �God created�. Not in precise detail, but as an overall point to get across. 4. And anyway, it has to also function as a tale that the Hebrews could easily remember and pass on. It�s the moral of the tale, if you will, that was being conveyed in it, not precise details. A God-inspired Aesopian fable. Of course I don�t believe this myself. But theists are allowed let god get involved if they want, provided it doesn�t contradict scientific findings. So it�s misdirected, under that scheme, to break down something that wasn�t meant literally in the first place into its components, and then complain that they�re not individually literally true. Cheers, Oolon

07-19-2002, 06:57 AM	#32
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	GTX, There are many Christians who believe in evolution. I base that on the fact that they say they are trusting Christ as their Savior and also state that they believe in evolution. I have no reason to second guess their salvation. I do however, think that they may have some inconsistencies in their doctrinal beliefs. For example the fall, sin and mans relationship to God before and after accepting Christ. If there was no fall then there could not logically be a reason to be saved and a way of changing ones position before God. However, my question was not wheather a Christian can believe in evolution in respect to how it affects his Christianity but rather how it would affect his evolution. This forum is obviously not sympathetic to Christianity but I figured I could gain some insights as to the Science side of it and also the broad range of experience posters here have. I think I have. I think I will post on a Large Christian message board like C.A.R.M. for the theological ramifications of a belief in evolution. Thanks all esp. Win Ace. As far as the questions adressed to me I am not sure at this point.

07-19-2002, 08:03 AM	#35
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Ex: I have heard Christians say that the Genesis account was practically plagiarism from other creation myths. I am not saying that is my view. But one way to look at books of the Bible is in light of its literary genre. Poetry (psalms), historical narrative(Chronicles, Kings) etc. I think that does not detract from its unity. As a high Egyptian government official,Moses would have had access to the writings of many cultures including creation myths. Could he not have written Genesis in the same literary form, and say through inspiration included features that reveal the nature of Yaweh, as opposed to the pagan gods in the lands around him? I have seen Genesis contrasted with other creation myths involving a Universal flood and seen various features pointed out like how in Genesis God closed the door in the Ark wheras in others the Noah like figure closed it. It was said this illustrates God's soverignty. There is much comparison of Yaweh to other gods in the O.T.

07-19-2002, 09:31 AM	#37
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	@ excreationist: throws up hands I try to defend Xian hogwash, and look where it gets me... Oolon

07-19-2002, 09:56 AM	#38
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	"As a high Egyptian government official,Moses would have had access to the writings of many cultures including creation myths Could he not have written Genesis in the same literary form, and say through inspiration included features that reveal the nature of Yaweh, as opposed to the pagan gods in the lands around him?" Moses write Genesis? I think you'd find that exceedingly difficult to prove, GeoTheo. Modern scholarship finds no evidence of a significant Jewish presence in Egypt, nor of an Exodus, nor for a Moses. Genesis, it is thought, was written after the Assyrians had destroyed the kingdom of Israel - whenever that was.

07-19-2002, 12:06 PM	#40
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	Hey Boys and Girls, it's really very simple, as Dr. Hugh Ross explains here; <a href="http://www.reasons.org/kidsspace/dinocave.html?main" target="_blank">Evolution does not mean Evilution</a> As the bible says, to believe in God and Jesus, you have to come before them as [with the mind of] a child.

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