Thomas Ash

One thought I'd like to add is that exactly what it is that generates conciousness is very much a mystery. After all, even a vending machine (a metaphor I've also used in discussions of free will) is an example of a decision-making mechanism, albeit a very simple, 100% pre-programmed one. But it's hard to see how any of the qualities humans have that you can put forward as distinguishing them from other animals (abstract thought. adaptability, arms, complex social interraction, sophisticated language) could in themselves generate conciousness. I can see that some of these things (abstract thought particularly, which some other animals have but at least oysters and vending machines don't) sound like the sort of things that could generate conciousness, but I doubt anyone could begin to come up with a process in which merely a different type of thought could create a concious experience of that thought.
And then there's my previous point that something as completely removed from abstract thought as the mere experience of pain or pleasure can generate some of our most vivid examples of conciousness argues against one of the above "higher functions" being the key ingredient. This is especially true if you think that it's just the manifestation of that pain in the brain, standing apart from anything else in the brain, that generates the experience of that pain. And it seems a reasonable assumption that nothing else going on in the brain (say some particular bit of abstract thinking about how to build a better vending machine) should come into the equation.

Thomas Ash

Wow!

That has to be one of the quickest responses I've ever seen to a post. Good reflexes, John.

John Page

Well, you said "Wait a sec...."

Cheers

VivaHedone

I didn't say that because fish are incapable of experiencing pain because they are incapable of conscious thought - they must experience some sensations, after all. Hence I later said:

I mean, they well feel pain, but wouldn't be able to think, 'Ow, that hurts'.

Thomas Ash

But surely conciousness is precisely the fact that pain or other experiences, thoughts, or whatever it is that happens to go on in your brain, don't just entail a set of electrical charges flying around your neurons, but also involve an 'experience' of that sensation. Which is what fish have, if you concede they experience pain, as this would be an example of them being concious. They might not think 'Ow, that hurts' ( ), but that's not the only type of concious experience we have. Nor, for that matter, necessarily the most morally relevant one when it comes to experiencing pain (though I accept this is debatable.)

Best wishes,

Thomas

Thomas Ash

While it doesn't precisely count as a philosophical point, I just thought I'd say that I'm a fish owner, and my fish have been coming under the predation of the local cats.
On the basis of my arguments that fish have conciousness on this thread, and can at least feel pain, I've been doing my best to defend them, but it's a tough job, requiring 24 hour presence, which given that I have to work to make money is a challenge.
I've never really liked cats, given their inherent cynicism and maligness towards the human race (plus I'm allergic), so <sinister voice>...let's just hope they can feel pain.

mhc

Hmmm.
I'm sure Confucious said something about the absurdity of cat-dislikers keeping open fish ponds......

Thomas Ash

Oops... duplicated post

Thomas Ash

Well, I see that point. But surely life is more difficult for cat-lovers who keep open fish ponds. Unless, of course, they subscribe to the fish-don't-feel-pain side of the argument, and are just using unsuspecting pet stores as cat food supermarkets...
On a more somber note, one of my fish actually did fall victim to (I think) the neighbour's cat a few years ago - which was obviously a bit of an awkward situation. I decided not to let the neigbours know what had happened (say by leaving a dead fish's head in their bed ), and just let sleeping dogs lie*.

* Ready for the day when they send those cats running for their lives.

Pyrrho

You might want to do some research to find something that repels cats; perhaps some sort of smell that they don't like that you don't notice or whatever. You could search the Internet, discuss the matter with someone at a pet store, or a veterinarian. You could also try a physical barrier, but with cats, that would not be easy. Or, you might want to consider getting a dog, and put a fence around your yard to keep the dog in (the fence would have to be very tall to keep cats out). Keeping a dog around the pond will tend to keep the cats away. Just make sure you get a dog that doesn't like swimming too much (that could be a serious problem; I once had a dog that loved water so much that she would immediately jump into any body of water she came across).