liquid

Palmorian displayed the interesting calculations on how dilute homeopathy actually is. What he failed to note is that most preparations these days are not of the X variety, but rather of the C variety (according to homeopathy, that makes them more effective because the dose is smaller). The difference is that C, of course, denotes dilutions of hundreds. Now, the most 'potent' homeopathic remedy right now is equivalent to 100X i.e.

1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,0*00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Now of course there are a lot of molecules in a drop, but the * indicates the point at which we might expect to have one molecule of substance left. Note that even AFTER this, it has been diluted 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. There simply is nothing there - this is why homeopaths can get away with including ingredients like arsenic and lead. There actually are none - if there was, they'd be open to lawsuits.

Now, that busts open the idea that more dilute concentrations are more potent somehow. However, you might think there was something in the more medium dilutions, where we might expect a few molecules floating around.

However, for many medium-diluation homeopathic remedies, similar concentrations occur in tapwater. For instance, the all the heavy metals. That's right. Tapwater is a homeopathic medicine. Strange how it never cures people of the symptoms they describe, but as soon as it is bottled and labelled, it works

And while I think of it, many homeopathic 'remedies' are chemically inert anyway. Aurum (Gold) is used to treat psychological problems. Except gold does not interact with body chemistry in any way, let alone when diluted to some ridiculous power. The fact that these inert certain placebos are claimed to work makes the other claims incredibly dubious!

[Edited to add stuff]

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: liquid ]</p>

liquid

An amusing quip I like on the ubject comes from <a href="http://www.randi.org" target="_blank">James Randi</a>:

On hoemopathy and conventional medicine working in tandem:

"To me, this is like hitching together a tractor and a kitten to haul an obstinate rock"

Also interesting to note that one very strong anecdote (Bree) actually turned out not to be homeopathy in any case... So she isn't stupid and homeopathy isn't supported.

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: liquid ]</p>

Corwin

Tron....

<a href="http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/smallpox/" target="_blank">http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/smallpox/</a>

Innoculation was done with material infected with smallpox. The later vaccine was created with cowpox.

Now.... people here have suggested that homeopathy is only effective as a placebo. While I'll concede that this is possible... I'll require an answer to a question...

If homeopathy is entirely a placebo... why does it work on domestic animals? Ones who have no idea what they're being given? (Which should eliminate any possibility of a placebo effect... for that to work you have to believe...) Check out the web. A fair number of vets are practicing homeopathic medicine on pets. The AMA also recognizes homeopathy as a legitimate medical branch.

But the pets.... yes, that's an issue now, isn't it?

alek0

You are missing the point. If you guys claim that alternative medicine does harm, you need to prove that claim and you need to show that it does more harm than conventional medicine.

And if it is relatively harmless (nothing is perfectly harmless), why does it bother you? In the worst case, homeopathic remedies only harm the wallet similar to all that cosmetic junk which is on the market for the gullible.

Dannyboy,
in some cases, like what I did for endometriosis, I would decide no treatment and no side effects. This is not because I don't need treatment, this is because I find side-effects of proposed treatments unacceptable. Same goes for suggested migraine medication (and on that actually my doctor agrees with me, I talked to her today), I find risk of adverse cardiac event which is in my case significant absolutely unacceptable for treating pain which will go away on its own. This does not mean that pain isn't bad, or that I like pain, simply means that the risks of medication are unacceptable to me (other people may reach different conclusion). Is this so hard to understand?

And let me reiterate again - I have no experience with homeopathy, nor would I ever try it. As a scientist, I find proposed explanation how it works complete nonsense. Whether it may work in other ways, can't be 100% certain but I am lets say 99.99% certain that homeopathy doesn't work.
However, I find that people on this board are dismissing all alternative treatments as junk, which is unreasonable and unscientific. And many of these people who are so condescending about alternative get most of their info from Quackwatch. Thoroughly researched the topic before forming an opinion (not!).

I would like to remind you people that in China, so called chinese medicine (smelly, nasty tasting brews) is for some applications considered just as effective as "western" medicine. Our University even has research center on chinese medicine.

Mad Kally

There is a lack of evidence-based research to support the safety and effectiveness of many alternative therapies.

Corwin

I have to agree with alek. I have Tourette's Syndrome. The only real treatment for this is Haloperiadol. (Unless there have been some recent advancements that I haven't heard about.) For those of you that aren't familiar with this drug, it's a psychotropic used to treat psychosis. The dosage used to suppress Tourette's symptoms is much lower, but the side effects are still there, namely moderate to extreme brain damage. (In the dosages used to treat psychosis, longterm use eventually ends up causing the hallucinations and other symptoms it initially suppresses.) I have never been on this drug and refuse to. I'll put up with twitching rather than put up with the side effects of a drug that's normally only used longterm in people who are so psychotic that they're a danger to themselves and others.

The basic problem with traditional western medicine is one of priorities. Do we have an effective treatment for TS that doesn't involve unacceptable side effects? Not in mainstream medicine. Why not? Simple... it's not a priority. TS isn't life threatening. I really don't have a moral or ethical problem with this. I would agree that treatments and cures for problems like AIDS and cancer are more important. But I still have to live with TS and OCD. If something like homeopathy can give me some relief, fine.

Mad Kally

I am familiar with Haldol. It has extra-pyramidal side effects including tardive dyskinesia which is irreversible. Another possible side effect is neuroleptic syndrome which can lead to death.

I would resist taking it for TS too. However it can be very effective for severely ill schizophrenics.

Corwin

Yep. And for TS it isn't worth it unless you're so bad that you're literally howling involuntarily. (I've thankfully never been that bad.)

There are a huge number of conditions like this. They're unpleasant and disrupt a lot of people's lives... but conventional medicine has never gotten around to dealing with them, because while they're horribly disruptive to our lives, the established medical research centers kinda have their hands full with heart disease, cancer, AIDS, ebola... etc.

'Alternative medical practices' seem to have had a fair amount of success with a lot of these conditions. (Conventional medicine doesn't even have the anecdotal evidence for treating TS that altmed does... not without horrific side effects.)

Gurdur

Or IOW, there's only so much money and only so many researchers.
What a surprise.

And it might well surprise you, but there is ongoing research into such conditions as TS.

Oh really.
I don't suppose you have any evidence to back up your assertion ?
Especially in "alternative" treatments for TS ?

What's more to the point is that conventional medicine doesn't even have the anecdotal evidence for raising people from the dead that the Bible does...


[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Corwin

You know this 'web' thing we're on gurdy? It's a wunderbar source of information. Go to about.com and do a search for tourette's syndrome, add in keywords like 'homeopathy' and 'medical marijuana' and 'biofeedback' and 'alternative.' That should get you started.

Unless you're gonna pull a Star Jones and want to not have anything to do with anything outside your little orthodox world, for fear of contamination.