Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vanderzyden · 10-06-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:

Like I said, a God that didn't know the future may not have known that He created us with faults. But such a God would also not be one to trust in matters of prophesy. I'm not claiming that you believe in the prophesies in the Bible (I would guess from your comments about omniscience that you don't). But there are many, many Christians who do. Many even use examples of Biblical prophesy to demonstrate its value.

Allow me to make a quick clarification: Your implications about my beliefs appear to be in error.

My suggestion to you was to discard the "traditional" definition of omniscience in favor of gaining a better understanding of God's characteristics from the Bible.

Correct prophesy is consistent with (1) having full knowledge of every possible event in the future, or (2) only knowing most things that will happen, or (3) knowing the critical things that happen. It is possible that the prophesies are predictions from God about his precise knowledge of how he will act in the future--this includes his prerogative influence over various aspects of his entire creation.

Quote:

1 Chronicles 29

10 David praised the LORD in the presence of the whole assembly, saying,

"Praise be to you, O LORD ,
God of our father Israel,
from everlasting to everlasting.
11 Yours, O LORD , is the greatness and the power
and the glory and the majesty and the splendor,
for everything in heaven and earth is yours.
Yours, O LORD , is the kingdom;
you are exalted as head over all.
12 Wealth and honor come from you;
you are the ruler of all things.
In your hands are strength and power
to exalt and give strength to all.

Vanderzyden

Vanderzyden · 10-06-2002, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
Two comments here. One, I find that each individual theist has his or her own conception of theology- when you ask enough questions (often only two or three) you find that the 'God' of Christian(1) is not the same as the 'God' of Christian (2). Likewise, hell(1) does not equal hell(2), heaven(1)=! heaven(2), on and on. Christians are inconsistent in what they actually believe. And this is not even considering the differences between one denomination and another, much less between one theistic religion and another! If, as Vanderzyden pointed out, this is evidence of God's transcendence of human understanding- we come to my second point, which is that we can't claim to understand *anything*, not word one, of a truly transcendent God. And yet we see all these people talking about what God supposedly wants us to do, say, believe!

You make at least one good point, Jobar. Yes, there are enormous problems with demoninationalism. Many people believe what they prefer, instead of what is likely to be true. I, too, often find myself exasperated when I see people place overwhelming emphasis upon an institution or a faction, instead of seeking the truth.

Quote:

It is the common observation of sociologists of religion that denominationalism is the religious aspect of secularization. It is the form that religion takes in a culture controlled by the ideology of the Enlightenment. It is the social form in which the privatization of religion is expressed. As Thomas Luckman says, "Once religion is defined as a private affair the individual may choose from the assortment of ultimate meanings as he sees fit." The denomination provides a shelter for those who have made the same choice. It is thus in principle unable to confront the state and society as a whole with the claim with which Jesus confronted Pilate-the claim of truth. It is not, in any biblical sense, the church.

It follows that neither a denomination separately nor all the denominations linked together in some kind of federal unity or "reconciled diversity" can be the agents of a missionary confrontation with our culture, for the simple reason that they themselves are the outward and visible signs of an inward and spiritual surrender to the ideology of our culture. They cannot confront our culture with the witness of the truth since even for themselves they do not claim to be more than associations of individuals who share the same private opinions. A genuinely ecumenical movement, that is to say, a movement seeking to witness the lordship of Christ over the whole inhabited "oikoumene" [world] cannot take the form of a federation of denominations.

-- Lesslie Newbigin, Foolishness to the Greeks

Vanderzyden

K · 10-06-2002, 12:55 PM

Vanderzyden:

Ah, but what about the Jesus' predictions about His betrayal at the hand of Judas or Peter's denial? These are specific sins of individuals that were to happen in the future. Should we suspect those New Testament accounts because God's knowledge only applies to His own actions?

Copernic · 10-06-2002, 01:58 PM

Have we figured out why God is sending Xeron to Hell yet?

MrDarwin · 10-06-2002, 02:50 PM

Because He can.

Vanderzyden · 10-06-2002, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
Vanderzyden:

Ah, but what about the Jesus' predictions about His betrayal at the hand of Judas or Peter's denial? These are specific sins of individuals that were to happen in the future. Should we suspect those New Testament accounts because God's knowledge only applies to His own actions?

You make a good point. But I don't think that is inconsistent with what I am saying:

Quote:

It is possible that the prophesies are predictions from God about his precise knowledge of how he will act in the future--this includes his prerogative influence over various aspects of his entire creation.

If I remember correctly (I'm presently too lazy to read the older posts), you raised the issue of prophecy. I am attempting to address your points specifically, while avoiding a commitment to anything beyond that so that we may keep our discussion focused (and avoid fragmenting this thread even futher).

Since you have implicitly asked, I will say that I believe, upon a biblical basis, that God has divine supernatural foreknowledge. He does know future events. My study of the Bible does not tell me conclusively that he knows (or cares to know) every single detail. However, Jesus said some amazing things that certainly suggest that God has very, very detailed knowledge:

Quote:

Luke 12:6 -- Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Vanderzyden

Aerik Von · 10-06-2002, 04:04 PM

I just cannot imagine why we have to suffer an ETERNITY either way, if God himself was to have created all I'd think we'd be thankful for one life - not another.

This idea of living eternall really makes no sense to me...why can one not accept that his concience will pass on?

If God made a hell to damn us too I'd imagine it'd simply be an eternity of making us worship him in heaven...how scary...

Jack the Bodiless · 10-07-2002, 03:01 AM

Quote:

It would seem that another analogy is more appropriate: footprints on a dirt path. If I see on the ground the distinct outline of a Technica boot sole, I can directly infer that a human has recently been walking the trail.

A poor analogy, especially as dinosaur footprints in successive strata are among the huge problems faced by creationism.

A better one: if you see on the ground the distinct outline of a Technica boot sole, you can directly infer that a five-legged mammoth has recently been tap-dancing along the trail, because this is what you want to believe. But I can't.

No sane person can infer, simply from studying real-world evidence, that the J/C account is correct. In fact, the reverse is true: many who begin with this belief reject it when confronted with the real world.

Jamie_L · 10-07-2002, 08:37 AM

Van:

Alright. For the sake of arguement, I will back away from the idea that the typically defined Christian God is incompatible with free will. Instead, I'll assume for this post that God can and did grant people free will.

Now, here is the situation I am personally in:

I have grown to adulthood, taking in 30 years worth of observations about the world. I have come to the conclusion that I have no reasonable/rational reason to believe the Christian God exists. This is not a conscious rejection, but rather an assesment of the facts and a judgement based on my experience.

Why is that a punishable offense? The aspects of the world that I have observed, for one reason or another, do not convince me of the existence of God. In fact, the convince me otherwise. Why am I to be punished for this?

Part II:
I have a number of personality traits that I did not choose. Many of these traits impact how I view the world and come to a conclusion about God. If God had full control over these traits, then he is to blame for their influence over how I feel about God. If He did not control them, them, and I couldn't control them, then they are the result of other influences. Either way, it seems unfair to hold me responsible for being a certain way if I didn't choose to be that way.

Again, why am I to be punished for making a decision based on inputs I did not create using mental faculties I did not create?

Jamie

K · 10-07-2002, 10:12 AM

Vanderzyden:

I'll rework my example removing omniscience and replacing it with an assumption about God's divine knowledge of the future that you provided.

Vanderzyden:

Assumptions (for the sake of argument).

A. God created humans with a design of His choice.

B. God has a very detailed knowlege about the future.

C. Humans have faults.

Logical progression:

1. God had a detailed knowledge about what every human would do before he created us. This includes all of our faults. FROM B and C

2. God still created us the way He chose to. FROM A

3. Since God created us using His design even though He knew full well that we would have faults, He created us with all of our faults. FROM 1, 2, and C

Thus, the result is the same even removing all references to omniscience.

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10-06-2002, 12:55 PM	#343
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Vanderzyden: Ah, but what about the Jesus' predictions about His betrayal at the hand of Judas or Peter's denial? These are specific sins of individuals that were to happen in the future. Should we suspect those New Testament accounts because God's knowledge only applies to His own actions?

10-06-2002, 01:58 PM	#344
Copernic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA Posts: 446	Have we figured out why God is sending Xeron to Hell yet?

10-06-2002, 02:50 PM	#345
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Because He can.

10-06-2002, 04:04 PM	#347
Aerik Von Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Hell, New York Posts: 151	I just cannot imagine why we have to suffer an ETERNITY either way, if God himself was to have created all I'd think we'd be thankful for one life - not another. This idea of living eternall really makes no sense to me...why can one not accept that his concience will pass on? If God made a hell to damn us too I'd imagine it'd simply be an eternity of making us worship him in heaven...how scary...

10-07-2002, 08:37 AM	#349
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Van: Alright. For the sake of arguement, I will back away from the idea that the typically defined Christian God is incompatible with free will. Instead, I'll assume for this post that God can and did grant people free will. Now, here is the situation I am personally in: I have grown to adulthood, taking in 30 years worth of observations about the world. I have come to the conclusion that I have no reasonable/rational reason to believe the Christian God exists. This is not a conscious rejection, but rather an assesment of the facts and a judgement based on my experience. Why is that a punishable offense? The aspects of the world that I have observed, for one reason or another, do not convince me of the existence of God. In fact, the convince me otherwise. Why am I to be punished for this? Part II: I have a number of personality traits that I did not choose. Many of these traits impact how I view the world and come to a conclusion about God. If God had full control over these traits, then he is to blame for their influence over how I feel about God. If He did not control them, them, and I couldn't control them, then they are the result of other influences. Either way, it seems unfair to hold me responsible for being a certain way if I didn't choose to be that way. Again, why am I to be punished for making a decision based on inputs I did not create using mental faculties I did not create? Jamie

10-07-2002, 10:12 AM	#350
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Vanderzyden: I'll rework my example removing omniscience and replacing it with an assumption about God's divine knowledge of the future that you provided. Vanderzyden: Assumptions (for the sake of argument). A. God created humans with a design of His choice. B. God has a very detailed knowlege about the future. C. Humans have faults. Logical progression: 1. God had a detailed knowledge about what every human would do before he created us. This includes all of our faults. FROM B and C 2. God still created us the way He chose to. FROM A 3. Since God created us using His design even though He knew full well that we would have faults, He created us with all of our faults. FROM 1, 2, and C Thus, the result is the same even removing all references to omniscience.

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