Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doubting Didymus · 02-23-2003, 07:40 PM

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it could have saved a few of the many real children who die everyday from such cheaply correctable deaths as dysentery and dehydration.

Todays excersise in getting ones priorities in perspective was brought to you by pz.

(P.S. anyone seen Alien? Of course you have!)

lunachick · 02-23-2003, 07:54 PM

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Originally posted by pz

As much as I respect the skill of the surgeons, I think the attitude we have in the West that the fetus is 'sacred' is a real waste. That surgery would have cost a small fortune. It would have been far wiser to simply abort and try again...and even better, contribute one one hundredth of what that operation cost to charitable medical aid to Africa and Asia, where it could have saved a few of the many real children who die everyday from such cheaply correctable deaths as dysentery and dehydration.

Worth repeating.

sweep · 02-23-2003, 08:03 PM

pz really hit the bullseye, IMO.

Amie, if you're listening, you do write some interesting stuff that I like, but, by god, keeping posting all the controversial material, it does stir a furore. Your threads are usually hot! hot! hot!

Infinity Lover · 02-23-2003, 08:23 PM

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Originally posted by livius drusus
...The first paragraph of the article contains 2 explicit references to the picture's political value in the abortion debate. It is packed with melodramatic superlatives about the importance of the picture. It takes every opportunity to personify the fetus using the emoting of mother and even surgeon to underscore the explicitly-stated message that fetus=baby and the clearly implied message that abortion=baby-killing.....The politics evident in that article are not incidental, they are the main stated aims of the organization hosting it.

I'll stand corrected... up to some degree. Taking the article on it's own merits, rather than an aspect of the whole website or the organisation behind it, the emphasis placed on the operation itself greatly outweighs the abortion debat it also mentions in some places. And the drawing of conclusions or choosing of sides is pretty much left up to the reader. I wouldn't call the superlatives used to describe the picture an overexageration, saying the article is 'packed' with them however is. Using the term "baby" also hardly constitutes as yanking matters out of proportions. The fetus is a baby in it's early stage. If you find the appeal to emotions in the article uncalled for, I'd still say our emotions undeniably affect us, and dismissing that would be irrational. And I'm sure there have been women who've emotionally suffered from what seemed such a wise choice at the time.

Mind you, I'm pro-choice myself. But I am curious what you find so objectable about an article written from a pro-life stance? Those people have the right to voice their opinion too, I hope you'll agree.

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What posters in this thread have even mentioned religion in passing?

A poster before me referred to the 'preaching' in the article; thought I'd nip it in the bud.

ju'iblex · 02-23-2003, 08:45 PM

pz, you certainly have a knack sometimes of expressing what i think, and expressing it with acid dammit.

:notworthy: keep it up my friend.

alek0 · 02-23-2003, 08:54 PM

Great post, pz :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Bree · 02-23-2003, 08:59 PM

Off topic post and picture deleted.

livius drusus · 02-23-2003, 09:00 PM

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Originally posted by Sabine Grant
LIVIUS : you were given ample answers but they happened to be answers you did not want to hear. I finaly rested my case and stated it after sounding like a broken record and being tired of stating my opinions over and over. You simply need Livius to allow people to disagree with you.

You brought up the issue of the "explicit" nature of the photoshop picture. I replied solely to point out that by my definition of explicit, the picture of a bloody deformed fetus and the dissected woman to whom it is attached qualifies perfectly whereas the entirely clothed, sexually positioned cartoon religious figures do not. That is my sole point. I am not otherwise remotely interested in replaying your broken record and will therefore not reply to the two paragraphs below on the subject.

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I did not realize that you have indeed asked in your first post Amie to post a warning. Amie went off line shortly after her last post. I gave Atheist in Foxhole 24 hours to aknowledge my posts to him. I would suggest you give her time to get back on line rather than expecting immediate action.

She has acknowledged my posts. Her last two contributions to this thread are in direct reply to me and are dismissive refusals to post a warning.

<snip off-topic interlude>

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By the way.... what are your thoughts on what I expressed in my previous post which is directly related to the thread? any comments that can feed the topic?

Your perspective on the science strikes me as romaticized, but pz has replied to that far better than I ever could.

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It is obvious that the article targets the fact that the fetus did " something human" at 21 weeks. It exposes the argument many pro lifers use which is the humanity of the unborn.

They operate on the presumption of humanity which is why they vest a random movement with agency and meaning. That picture could only be a proof of humanity to someone willing to project human reactions onto a fetus.

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Of course that humanity has become irrelevent in the face of the rights of the mother to choose.

No. That humanity is an unproven assertion but is nonetheless an issue that has been addressed by the law in terms of fetal viability.

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However many pro choice individuals recognize the need to use palliative measures for abortions performed on fetuses which have developped sensorial and motor functions. So that " humanity " is not quite ignored by all pro choice individuals.

There is a significant difference between recognizing and countering the neural capacity for pain and determining humanity. You eat things which once had sensory and motor functions every day. They probably received palliate care too. Yet, I very much doubt any of them were human.

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I would like to see more energy, time and money spent on contraception programs and activism in this country than on the abortion issue. It would be one step in the right direction.

I agree but I am not interested in pursuing the issue in this thread. It is tangential no matter what you think the point of the op was.

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The second step being to restore some degree of responsibility when it comes to sexualy active teens. I do not think that abstinence is a solution for all teens but it needs to also be presented as an alternative to contraception.

I disagree but I am not interested in pursuing the issue in this thread.

Sakpo · 02-23-2003, 09:01 PM

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The tiny, clutching fingers are grasping the doctor's hand because the surgeon posed it that way for the photograph, not because the fetus reached out to him from inside the womb

Source (contains the photo, large, in black and white).

Linda · 02-23-2003, 09:08 PM

Just FYI for those who have already posted: A warning about the picture has been posted in the OP.

02-23-2003, 08:59 PM	#47
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Livius, don't look! Off topic post and picture deleted.

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02-23-2003, 08:03 PM	#43
sweep Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: sugar factory Posts: 873	pz really hit the bullseye, IMO. Amie, if you're listening, you do write some interesting stuff that I like, but, by god, keeping posting all the controversial material, it does stir a furore. Your threads are usually hot! hot! hot!

02-23-2003, 08:45 PM	#45
ju'iblex Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sydney Australia and beyond the realms of Gehenna Posts: 6,035	pz, you certainly have a knack sometimes of expressing what i think, and expressing it with acid dammit. :notworthy: keep it up my friend.

02-23-2003, 08:54 PM	#46
alek0 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 640	Great post, pz :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

02-23-2003, 09:08 PM	#50
Linda Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 932	Just FYI for those who have already posted: A warning about the picture has been posted in the OP.

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