John Hancock

sphinx wui

There are some idiots on this board that condon Sharon. I'm not one of those. Actually I think he is a war criminal. I don't believe in an anthropomorphic deity much less that runs around fucking mortals.

BTW when will you explain Shia and Sunni ?

Martin Buber

Damn look at the time - off to bed Bye

Sakpo

I like asking stuff like "well, what happened to all the Dutch Jews? There were well established Jews in Holland prior to the period of The Holocaust, afterward there weren't,a lthough things such as their impact ont he language remained. What happened?"
It's stuff like that in addition to all the positive evidence that makes holocaust denial so insane/implausible.

As for the importance of The Holocaust, there are things that set it apart and give it special historical importance, includinghow it impacted how people thought re. European culture/European sophistication, European "civilization" and any supposed inherent superiority/moral superiority. As a large scale industrialized massacre of civilians it also is important. It also was important in terms of how it drained from the German war effort, it had a massive cultural/intellectual impact in terms of artistic output, changing how both intellectuals and non intelelctuals thought, etc. The things don't make it "the worst," or worse than other mass murders/programs of murder, or an amazing aberration or anything else, but they do give it some special significance, if only because of historical accident it was so well documented, is well known about, due to time and place, and was so distinctly modern, it was in the heart of Europe and it was very, very, much a product of our times, and it was the first such one to get really well known about and to be really well documented.

"Worse," say, then what the Belgians under Leopold did in the Congo? No. But it had greater effect in terms of how it impacted the mental world people would forever after live in.

Here's something on the subject.

ma1939

I'm sure some of you already know my stance on this issue. I really don't feel like getting into a row about it. Personally, this issue bores me. I don't claim to be an expert; the study of the Second World War is just a hobby of mine. Nonetheless, I am almost 100% convinced that the conformist historian view of Nazi Germany and the holocaust is total rubbish.

As far as being a holocaust denier, it's one of those nebulous terms that you can't really define. What is a holocaust denier? If you believe that only 5 million were killed as opposed to 6 million, like Pat Buchanan, does that make you a holocaust denier? If you question whether there was any grand scheme to finish off the Jews or whether there were just arbitrary killings on the Eastern Front, like revisionist historian David Irving, does that make you a holocaust denier? If you question why there are hundreds of thousands of memorials in the United States dedicated to the alleged murdered 6 million Jews, and practically none to the 20 million or so Ukrainians butchered under Stalin or the tens of millions of Native Americans killed and enslaved by the European colonists, does that make you a holocaust denier? If you believe that the Jews were gassed, but also believe that revisionists like Ernst Z�ndel and Fred Toben should not be incarcerated for exercising their right to free speech, does this qualify?

This is my last post here concerning the holocaust, Hitler, race, or the Jews, at least for the time being. I've already been admonished by one of the moderators about my posts, and I personally don't want to get bounced off this site. I didn't come to this site to discuss these topics, but invariably every one of my posts has dealt with these subjects. Anyway, anyone interested in free and open debate on the holocaust can go to:

http://www.codoh.com

http://www.ihr.org

By the way, I was one of the people who voted no. Now it's time for the others to put their heads on the chopping block.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by sphinx wui
Most people think that Jesus is Son of God! Is this majority makes it a fact?
The majority argument is FALSE.

Actually, the majority don't.

However, I started this thread because you objected to my use of the plural pronoun--it's still running 95%, the plural pronoun was right.

My point from my childish post was simple, IT IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS, IT IS YOUR CRIME NOT OURS and they are trying to use it to justify their crime against the Palestinians.

I never said it was your crime. I said that your denial of it says a lot about lack of credibility.

Sauron

Hm. Well, for starters:

Many groups of people have been slaughtered in history - Armenians, Cherokees, Rwandans, Cambodians, Kurds, Serbs/Croats, etc. And many of their deaths were brutal, efficient, and ghastly. Others have been left alone to die slow deaths - the Irish lost 4 million during the potato famine, for example.

So I guess the answer to the question "What about the Holocaust", is "which particular one are you talking about?"

The Jewish Holocaust happened, but it's not as special or unique as some people would have us believe. The Jews don't have a monopoly on being hunted down, neither in terms of level of atrocity, nor in terms of total number of people killed. And the Israelis have squandered any goodwill or moral authority that being Holocaust victims gave them, by their treatment of Palestinians.

Answerer

Guys, a little side topic. How about the Nanjing masscare? Do you guys believe that it really happened?

I had meet hordes of Japanese who tell me straight in the face that their "countrymen" were kind and would never do such a thing (What the F***). I think the same thing happened to some of the Germans as well.

Tristan Scott

In the first place there has never been anything like the Holocaust because there has never been a people more universally villified than the European Jews in the first half of the twentieth century. There has never been a slaughter that was systematically institutionalized and industrialized like this one. Never. If you think there ever was, I'd be interested in knowing about it. Sure Stalin was responsible for many more deaths in Russia, but the killing was not an institution manned with so many willing participants. Jew hatred in Europe, especially eastern europe was so intense and so universal that there was no problem at all finding recruits to carry out the task.

That is what makes the Holocaust unique. The Holocaust was bound to happen. If the Nazis never came to power it probably would have happened anyway. It wasn't that Hitler hated the JEws, or Himmler. It was that practically everyone, be they intellectual or common, they all despised the Jews and wanted them gone.

Tristan Scott

I realize that you are making a hit and run on this, but I must say that you are certainly not a student of WWII if you hold to those beliefs.

Jat

Originally posted by Tristan Scott

In the first place there has never been anything like the Holocaust because there has never been a people more universally villified than the European Jews in the first half of the twentieth century. There has never been a slaughter that was systematically institutionalized and industrialized like this one. Never. If you think there ever was, I'd be interested in knowing about it. Sure Stalin was responsible for many more deaths in Russia, but the killing was not an institution manned with so many willing participants. Jew hatred in Europe, especially eastern europe was so intense and so universal that there was no problem at all finding recruits to carry out the task.

That is what makes the Holocaust unique. The Holocaust was bound to happen. If the Nazis never came to power it probably would have happened anyway. It wasn't that Hitler hated the JEws, or Himmler. It was that practically everyone, be they intellectual or common, they all despised the Jews and wanted them gone.

How about the complete genocide of the Canaanites?

Gurdur

Correct, mostly.

If you put the emphasis on "industrialized", correct. Correct, muchly.
More or less correct.
Nonsense.
Wrong, completely wrong.
Very wrong.
"After all, who today remembers the Armenians ?"
--- Hitler, when discussing the Final Solution with his top officials, referring to the Turkish genocidal massacre of 1� million Armenians in 1915, the first "modern" genocide, meaning that with his Final solution they would get away with it in time, despite so much opposition even in Gemany.
The Nazis never really had a majority political mandate, but relied on ballot-box-stuffing, outright vote-tally falsification, and intimidation to gain power in the last elections and final governmental-power-hand-over held.
Very misleading, and therefore wrong.
Most Germans did not know of the existence of the death camps till late in the day (many of course did not want to know); and many Germans died for protecting Jews or otherwise protesting.
The first victims were the German Communists; after them, the SPD, the German homosexuals, the mentally-retarded (though with that one popular protest buggered it up a little), then the Jews, Gypsies and often the Slavs.