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Old 01-07-2003, 03:51 PM   #41
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LLaurieG

Criticism in an "activism" forum is certainly appropriate, welcome and promoted. However, I have often wondered if it is wise to under-estimate the value of what others do/don't do to advance the cause of critical thinking skills, based exclusively on the factors in which one (or more) individual(s) believes is the "only" potentially successful path to be followed.

"... and a LOT braver and more admirable than atheists merely sitting in front of the computer typing furiously on the II board. "

Personally, I found that statement to be rather unenlightened and potential divisive. I realize that you were only responding to other posts that you found to be counter to your own set of beliefs. However, a good many historically famous activists brought about desired changes with only some words written on a piece of paper. To attempt to diminish their bravery and long term public respect simply because their approach to the problem is not your approach to the problem would appear to be very narrow and limited.

Perhaps the longer you participate in these forums, the greater will become your appreciation of their value as a market place for brainstorming , information exchange and outright motivation... among just a few of the benefits of bringing together people sitting in front of their PCs rather than, at that moment, carrying placards in the streets.
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Old 01-07-2003, 10:22 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toto
Note - for the irony impaired, this is sarcasm.
LOL, sure... you were talking about the FBI agents that read this forum regularly!
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Old 01-08-2003, 11:42 AM   #43
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Quote:
(Buffman) LLaurieG, Criticism in an "activism" forum is certainly appropriate, welcome and promoted. However, I have often wondered if it is wise to under-estimate the value of what others do/don't do to advance the cause of critical thinking skills, based exclusively on the factors in which one (or more) individual(s) believes is the "only" potentially successful path to be followed.
(L) "... and a LOT braver and more admirable than atheists merely sitting in front of the computer typing furiously on the II board. "
(Buffman) Personally, I found that statement to be rather unenlightened and potential divisive. I realize that you were only responding to other posts that you found to be counter to your own set of beliefs. However, a good many historically famous activists brought about desired changes with only some words written on a piece of paper. To attempt to diminish their bravery and long term public respect simply because their approach to the problem is not your approach to the problem would appear to be very narrow and limited.
(Laurie) Jeez, don't get your panties all in a twist, Buffman. Your posts are among those here I admire. I appreciate Richard's activist idea. It is not the only activism I admire, I admire it a lot. Be aware of committing atheistic divisiveness yourself, criticizing one remark in my overall positive and supportive post as "very narrow and limited." And on first acquaintance too! Tsk. I say, tsk.

Quote:
(Buffman) Perhaps the longer you participate in these forums, the greater will become your appreciation of their value as a market place for brainstorming...
(Laurie) Do I smell the teensiest whiff of condescension here? But I'll overlook it, because basically I consider you to be an eloquent voice for non-belief, Buffman, and I abhor divisiveness. But FYI, I am User #8 on this board. I joined when it began in 1998. With my new at-home ISP, I didn't bothered to re-register & re-claim my old user number. Of course "Laurie" was already taken, so now I'm LLaurieG. But if any young whippersnapper atheists are gonna try to pull rank, I will reclaim it! Last info point. We BOTH know there ARE many non-believers who do "merely sit in front of the computer, typing furiously on the II board." I was one myself in my initial, consolidating-my-identity years. So they are out there. My post simply expressed support for an idea - Richard's - that anyone can do in their community.

Get off your high horse now and play nice.
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Old 01-08-2003, 03:44 PM   #44
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LLaurieG

Many apologies for any semblance of high 'horsedness' or not appreciating the reasoning behind your support for Richard's idea(s). You are quite correct to call me out on my use of your total post count as a factor in attempting to determine your reasons for commenting as you did. (Bad on me!)

Though I believe that I have several valid reasons, based on some relatively recent discussions about the Washington March, for being sensitive to those offering one form of activism as preferable to other forms, before adequately airing their advocacy, I have no excuse for posting my comments to you in any manner that you might view as being less than constructive opinion/criticism.

Unfortunately, I still find your opening paragraph quite accusatory of those who may have other forms of positive and productive activism skills that better suit their abilities and the overall goal. Perhaps it is a language thing and I read more into your words than I should have. If so, I once again apologize and feel appropriately slapped on the hand.
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Old 01-08-2003, 04:03 PM   #45
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Laurie is dead on the money. I do think that a certain amount of textual "enlightenment" goes into getting more respect for atheists, especially in influencing individual thought. However, fundamentalists go largely unchecked by the people they are taking shots at, and the means of protest I speak of is more centered on people's interpretations of what it says on the placards, not "getting up in their face" as fundamentalists so often do. I am aware that makes people angry. So, we need both criticism/intelligent defense AND activism in freethought. The intelligent defense is already there, maybe too much, and with the exception of the Godless March on Washington, freethinkers have little activism to their name. Now they're protesting abortion doctor's houses, the next could be, oh, Dan Barker's. Put up or shut up.
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Old 01-09-2003, 10:23 PM   #46
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sushi X
. . . Most people wouldn't even take the time to listen to us, so if we force it down their throats, then they will see that we make sense!

. .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this person for real?

I'm sorry Sushi, but that is Obama Sin Laden's exact philosophy. You are simple impatient and frustrated because the world cannot see the brilliance of your cure for it's numerous ills.

So many of the above posts are long on rhetoric and short on facts. You won't mind me asking:

Which recent Supreme Court decision has somehow nullified one of the Amendments or the Bill of Rights?

Why is there a growing number of black conservative radio hosts fed up with politically correct court decisions, screwed up schools, whiny irresponsible people, and minority rule?

How many Muslim's have been molested after Ashcroft said he would prosecute anti-Muslim activities to the maximum? (Please supply facts, incidents, URL's)

Why would a huge majority of Americans vote for Colin Powell if he ran for president?

You can always find local and rather obscure violations (which is what I keep saying we should worry about) but all this talk about some out of control right wing takeover of the country is just nonsense- born more of paranoia and impatience than rational, honest thinking IMO.

Try to throw in the occasional fact or example, otherwise nobody will listen but your fellow atheist reactionaries.

Rad
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Old 01-10-2003, 11:16 AM   #47
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Reading this I thought back to why I became an atheist. Then I went to the thread where others tell their story. Overwhelmingly, it is because we got ACCURATE INFORMATION and education that led us to question and require better answers. I still think this is the best , tho not the only, way to increase atheism and fight ignorance. If enough people learn we won't need activism - we'll be in the majority.

Part of my 2 cents.
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Old 01-10-2003, 11:19 AM   #48
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Another 2 cents I ask you to think about: If someone were beligerant and in YOUR face would your reaction be "Gee, I'd like to hear what he/she has to say. Maybe they have a point?"
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Old 01-10-2003, 12:11 PM   #49
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Default Proselytizing

Seeing Sushi's opinions now, I think he falls into the new growing "atheist fundamentalist" category. The reason *I* became a nontheist is because Christianity and Islam are so forceful and proselytizing in practice, and I will never forget that. Therefore, when I see my "cohorts" falling into the same cornered-dog mindset, I get very bent out of shape. You're no ally of mine if you seek to go around imposing your will or traditions on others. And don't give me that "Well maybe we could just suggest it to them, offer them a choice, and it would sink in later" crap. That's exactly what Christian evangelists say.

Proselytizing is not needed. Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the United States, and I've never seen a Wiccan proselytize a day in my life. It could be argued Christianity is gaining more converts, but they're also losing more off the other side. Think of it as those little balls in psychiatrists' offices. As the row gains a ball to one side, it loses a ball to the other. Then, when the group of balls "goes after" the other one, they lose a ball off the other side. Aggressive proselytizing actually turns people OFF of a belief system. I totally support religious freedom, not for just myself, but everyone else. If you don't like religious freedom, you're no better than Osama bin Laden or Pat Robertson.
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Old 01-10-2003, 01:37 PM   #50
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ACF hits the nail right on the head again! You too, admice! Look, I'd like to see the number of freethinking non-theists increase too, but as ACF said, "Proselytizing is not needed." I agree. Let's keep to being good people and others will see that us non-theists aren't the immoral savages that their priests, rabbis, etc. make us out to be. OTOH, I am very aggressively against any further erosion of C-S separation or discrimination of non-theists. And I will fight any such measures to weaken that wall (C-SS).

*gratuitous plug*

Again I would say to look at AU or FFRF. These groups are trying to defend our rights, and they are deserving of our help. And don't forget the AFF (see above link in ACF's post)!
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